Evidence god does not exist

[Paul the Human]

The word 'delusion' simply means to believe something that isn't real. If there is no god, then all believers are delusional. It's not meant to sound as offensive as it probably does, though. Heheh.

Now, back to the guy saying that his god spoke to him. Let's say he believes his claim is true. Now, there are only two options left, since we know he isn't lying. It's either true... or he is simply imagining it (i.e. suffering a delusion). In order for it to be true, his god would have to be real. Proving that his god is real (or already believing so) is required before believing that he spoke to his god. Same goes for the other several million people making that claim.

Now, to be realistic... most people do not claim to have literally heard the voice of their god, or to have actually seen him, or what have you. Most believers see and hear god in things that happen in the world around them. They interpret these things as messages from and/or evidence of their god's presence. So, when they say they have 'personal experience of god', they only believe that because they already believe that. It's a self-sustaining delusion.

[Watson]

@Cap'n Scarlet- What? How do you make the leap from 'allow one expience as evidence' to 'allow them all as evidence'? They are personal experiences, and thus they must all be evaluated on a personal level. Yet again a blanket is thrown over top the human aspect of this to try and distort the answer.

@Paul- Everything is connected, in some way or another. Some people know where to look for the connections, and soem people don't. To truly 'prove' to you that the man's claim that God spoke to Him was true, we would have to prove God. To prove God, we would have to observe the universe from a literally God's eye view, and make all of the connections in all of the right ways in their vast gloriousness. To do so from our limited human perspective would be impossible and incomprehensible.

Basically, the universe is bigger than us, Paul. And so is God. haha

[Paul the Human]

Basically, the universe is bigger than us, Paul. And so is God. haha

Agreed.

[Captain Scarlet]

@Cap'n Scarlet- What? How do you make the leap from 'allow one expience as evidence' to 'allow them all as evidence'? They are personal experiences, and thus they must all be evaluated on a personal level. Yet again a blanket is thrown over top the human aspect of this to try and distort the answer.

@Paul- Everything is connected, in some way or another. Some people know where to look for the connections, and soem people don't. To truly 'prove' to you that the man's claim that God spoke to Him was true, we would have to prove God. To prove God, we would have to observe the universe from a literally God's eye view, and make all of the connections in all of the right ways in their vast gloriousness. To do so from our limited human perspective would be impossible and incomprehensible.

Basically, the universe is bigger than us, Paul. And so is God. haha

I agree. And as personal experiences are subjective they are valueless as a truth claim. Therefore they do not provide evidence for a god.

[Watson]

Then how do we judge anything, decide on anything, Cap'n Scarlet? All we have is our subjective experience, nothing more.

[Minimalist]

The claims of said 'experience' exist. When someone makes such a claim (My god speaks to me), there are three possibilities:
1. His god spoke to him.
2. He suffers from a delusion.
3. He's lying.

I certainly see no compelling reason to believe his claim. It is, by far, the least likely thing to be true.

True, Paul....but then one must assign probabilities to the choices.

1. Less than .0000001%

2. c. 50%


3. c. 50%

[Disinter]

@Disinter- We aren't assuming anything. By acknowledging God, we are expanding out view into the objective, which allows us to grow and progress as human beings. I never said there was no objective view, I said that unless you acknowledge an objective, nothing is verifiable or validated. Which, again, leads us to thoughts and musings about God very quickly.

Yeah you are assuming, and you are assuming that an objective view is truly possible. How are we lead to god when nothing about him is verifiable? You really need to think about what you are saying. "Grow and progress as human beings"? Is that more spirituality pep talk? Do we feel this progress? How is it verifiable? You aren't being very specific....Are you suggesting that a connection with so called god(s) is possible?

[everythingafter]

after asked "are you there" you should have waited for his answer first.. Wouldn't have to had this boring conversation if you had..

He would have died waiting...

Related to that point, there's this Christian alternative rock song from a band called Stavesacre called "Keep Waiting" (a memory relic from my days as a believer), in which part of the lyrics go:

I was far away from here, felt like a million miles
Under unfamiliar skies, in more than one way far from dreams I'd dreamed
I'd seen the blinding light, there was hope but was there time
Slow trigger starting line, and each day of waiting seemed eternity

You never left my side
You never left my mind

So they will open up their mouths, but really who are they
And soon enough they'll fade away, only blind but soon they'll have to see
Fear like a cancer spreads, how many more will drop their eyes
Lift their hands and wait to die, and how much time to spend to see who stands
But I think I know the way, I got a promise on the mind, and I'll be looking for what's mine
Sovereign stillness whispers trust in me

In just a little while
They'll wish that they were silent

Keep waiting, I'll be right on time ...

And just a little while, for me, never came, and I finally realized it never would.

[solja247]

For me this is a very real problem for theism. It has to assert that there is a part of existence that is unaccounted for and that the uni, multi, manyverse is not the totality of existence. This means we cannot in effect reason to god from analogy because analogies only work by reference to the totality of what we know exists. On the face of it this immediately rules out arguments from design and the cosmological arguments. Leaving ontological arguments (which is as close to you get to bootstrapping a god into existence by definition only), moral arguments (for which there are naturalist defeaters), tag type arguments (which seem poor) and personal experience (which outside of each individual carry little weight).

We will never know the mind of God, or how He reasons or thinks, how is that a problem?

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If someone create the Universe, by higher probability is my grandma.

This may help you:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy

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Your view of a god is incoherent. If your god is all loving he will want all HIS creation to freely join him in fellowship. HE has created a situation where it is a reasonable position to have unbelief, and as such if god esxisted he should provide better evidence for his existence. I doubt the creator of the universe has such an uneasy vanity that he couldn't overlook a bit of name calling. So the question remains for an all loving god, who is perfect in every way and wants all of us to join him freely in fellowship, why doesn't he give us an unambiguous indication of his existence. I would argue that is becuase he isn't there - the hiddenness of the divine is a major problem for theism.

Everyone has freedom of choice, if you follow FSM, then thats good for you, God most likely wont stop you.
So what sought of evidence are you looking for? A video of God on youtube?
Although some/most atheists dont see the point of theology, theology has shaped their own perception on how they view life and God (if He does exist) You either think of God as this hippy who draws love hearts and smokes weed and says, 'Hey man, follow me, I love you.' or. dont follow me, you are going to burn in hell forever!'

These two concepts which arent even backed up by theology of what Paul wrote or is in the gosphels.

What if God didnt really care about an atheist who questioned His existence?

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Then how do we judge anything, decide on anything, Cap'n Scarlet? All we have is our subjective experience, nothing more.

He cant. Our senses and reasoning are the only way to get to the Truth (or at least close to it).

Im in between an Empiricist and a Rationalist.

One cannot deny what our senses tell our brain.

[Minimalist]

We will never know the mind of God, or how He reasons or thinks, how is that a problem?

Because it is far more likely that there are no gods and you are simply wasting your time.

Again, it's your time and you can waste it however you like.


But when you people start pushing your nonsense on everyone else that becomes a problem.