What computer do you have?

[Tiberius]

"This item does not ship to Canberra, Australia."

Lithium Ion batteries cannot be carried by air, so how long do you think it would take to arrive in Australia IF I could buy one?

And before you ask, no you cannot get them on Amazon Australia, and the ones sold on eBay are almost certainly fakes (recycled old batteries - heck that's probably what's on Amazon too). For example notice that this one does not carry the C-Tick. Which means that they need to be an approved importanter and have had the item tested and have a certificate issued for it  - which they don't have either (more info on all that here). It's actually not at all difficult or expensive to have a cert issued for an electronics product you are importing, so the fact that the products on eBay do not carry them shows they have been illegally imported, have not been tested or approved for use in Australia, and therefore are almost certainly fakes (reused batteries).

LMAO. I give up. You move the goalposts every time you are proved wrong, it's sad and pathetic. First you say MacBooks aren't serviceable, and I link you to a page which describes how to replace the battery. Then you complain that the tutorial required you to ignore a sticker saying "do not remove battery", despite the fact you can remove the battery with no issues. You further complain that you can't buy batteries from Apple, and I link to them being sold on Amazon. Then you have the audacity to complain that they can't be shipped to Australia by air, like that has any bearing on whether MacBooks are user-serviceable or not.

Look, I know you hate Apple, all right, but just because you hate a company, doesn't mean you get to make up shit about that companies products, nor does it mean you get to constantly redefine your own definition of "user-serviceable" just because someone keeps proving you wrong.

It's not a "feature" Tiberius, it's the durability design of the product. And since it's a standard design now for laptops in that price range, people could reasonably expect their Macbooks to be spill resistant if Apple does not make it clear that there is a critical design flaw in their products at the time of sale. Again, I'm talking Australian consumer law - I know that in the USA there is not as much protection for consumers, but what I'm saying is that this feature is so standard now in laptops of that price range that I strongly believe that Apple would lose a court case held against them - just as they did for refusing to honour statutory warranties. Because it is reasonable for a consumer who has owned a Lenovo, Dell, HP, Toshiba, or ASUS in the absence of clear information otherwise to assume that a new Macbook would also be spill resistant.

Whatever you want to call it, it doesn't matter. I'm not getting into an argument over the features / "durability designs" of MacBooks vs other laptops. Laptops are all different. I'm sure some laptops have better keyboards than MacBooks, that was never my argument and as I said before, I don't care to get into it, especially with you.

I takes the ACCC something like 2-3 years to act on these matters, because of how long it takes them to build a case. The right thing to do is for the company to obey the law in the first place, or for consumers not to purchase things from Apple. Especially not laptops. Spilling something on your keyboard should not render an expensive laptop unusable.

Still irrelevant to the discussion. Also, I'm not sure how long you've been around consumer electronics, but generally speaking water based liquid + electronics never mix. Again, this is about selling products to a general user base, not you. You sound like you spills stuff on laptops way more than the average consumer. Apple don't care about you; they care about regular people who don't spill stuff on laptops (I've *never* spilled stuff on my laptop, because I know not to have a drink next to a laptop).

Again, watch the video I posted. The hinges in Macbooks from that time (and I imagine this applies to 2009 ones too) were deliberately designed to crack. There's nothing you can do to stop it, and this obvious "design flaw", or from Apples POV obsolescence planning, was carried on year after year.  That's simply a fact, it can't be argued since they took a good design that works for every other laptop on the market, and worked for Apple, and delicately chose to redesign how the hinge attaches to the screen so that the frame holding it is weakened by the screw hole, gets hairline fractures, and eventually snaps. Like I said - not opinion, that's fact.

No, it's a fact that there was a design flaw. It's your opinion that the flaw was deliberate. It's not the first time there's been a design flaw in an Apple product (remember the iPhone 4's antenna issue). Apple aren't perfect; nobody is claiming that. However they fixed the antenna issue and gave everyone a free case which solved the problem.

Anyway, as it happens, Apple are repairing these design flaws for laptops that are out of warranty: https://www.christopherprice.net/macbook...-2036.html

Don't think that's the attitude of a company that deliberately designed the flaw in the first place...unless of course you are delusional enough to think Apple likes wasting money.

It doesn't need to completely fail to be rendered unfit for purpose. For all I know, you didn't cycle the battery enough to drain it to the point where it needs replacement. For all I know you're not prone to spilling shit either.

Nope, I've replaced the battery once. I could have bought one online, but I had AppleCare at the time so they replaced it for free. My point is, it still works, 8 years later. It's used on a daily basis by my wife. If it were designed to break after a while, Apple failed in that department.

...oh, and no, like most of the human race I don't spill stuff on my electronics.

Again I'm calling BS on this. 1. no non-technical person ever has a problem swapping out an external battery. 2. It takes 5 minutes work to open a Macbook and change the battery, that's not worth charging people $100+ above the retail cost of the battery for, if anything the service should be performed for free - or cost no more than $10 above the retail cost of the battery.

My guess is you haven't been around many non-technical people. Non-technical people have problems turning laptops on and off, let alone changing a battery. In regards to the cost; there are likely computer repair shops which can do the replacement for a lower amount. I'm not sure, I've never replaced my battery via a third party, but given that the instructions for doing it are online, I would imagine computer repair shops would be able to undercut Apple.

---

Okay, okay. My hatred of Apple goes wayyyy back to the first Macs. I was doing an AP computer class (1st year uni credit) in programming, but Apple soooo cock-blocked programmers from having any access to features of the operating system, including graphical routines (drawing shapes etc.) and playing sounds in assembly language. They had a series of technical books you had to buy. So after hours of weedling and begging my school, they bought the books-- which Apple said they'd send "right away," but which arrived months and months later, at the end of the school year. So my computer had about $2000 worth of kindling, and I never got to make my 1st pro app while I was still in high school.

On my Radio Shack Color Computer, you could literally buy a commented print-out of the whole operating system, and you could ALTER IT to function how you wanted. Money at that time was actually made by people making cool new OS mods for that computer. PC computers were similarly easy-- you could buy a non-proprietary book on how to program for the early PCs, and get down to work.

So yeah-- proprietary bullshit, extra costs, shitty service, but all of it in a sparkly, futuristic-looking package.

My opinion of Apple users is that they consider the inflated prices a membership fee to inclusion in a cool vision of the future-- and other users are people who want a product they can use how they want, and for which they can expect reasonably-priced service.

I'm sorry to hear Apple fucked you around at school, however if we're talking about the first Macs, that was decades ago. You probably shouldn't use decades old behavior to complain about a company today. The company back then has almost no resemblance to the company today. If you ever get a Mac again, you'll be happy to know that the OS is now UNIX based, and you can play around with the OS much like you can with Linux (there's even a load of Linux applications ported across).

Personally, for me it's not about paying extra for a "membership fee". I justify the cost in three main ways:

1) The MacBook Pro is durable and will last you a very long time. As I stated before, my 2009 MacBook Pro has been through some abuse, being carried around for years, probably dropped, but it still works fine.

2) The OS X operating system is, IMO, one of the most powerful for personal computing. Now, I love Linux, and I use it on servers, and I have a NetBook with it installed, but if you want me to do everyday tasks, I'm going with OS X. It being UNIX based means I have a shell and I can hack around the OS a bit too.

3) The look. MacBooks to me, look very nice. Note that this is #3 on the list and deservedly so. I don't care too much about the look, but I'd be lying if I didn't consider the aesthetics something worth spending a little extra money on, considering the above two points as well.

[I_am_not_mafia]

Car guys will eat me for breakfast here but I'll use the analogy anyway. A corvette is a fast car and so is a porsche. The corvette gets its fast via a huge engine that turns copious amounts of dinosaur bones into horsepower at an alarming rate. Porsche does the same thing by cramming as much torque as possible into a very light weight vehicle. 

And so it is with PC's and macs. I can build a PC muscle car that achieves performance via raw horsepower. And thus needs regular upgrades to constantly raise said horsepower in order to keep up performance as software updates continue to impose higher and higher loads of the hardware. Or you can get a mac with similar torque and much more lightweight software which will therefore run great now and continue to run great even after years of software upgrades. 

For me? Its a very close race. Obviously for you its less so. 

Does apple build in planned obsolescence? Of course they do. But I've run macs all way to their obsolescence and I've run PC's until they were well past the point of deserving resuscitation and I have to tell you, in my experience from a practical usability point of view, the mac was much more usuable for much longer. And that's with regular hardware upgrades and clean OS installs for the PC and almost no hardware upgrades or clean OS installs on the macs. 

Believe me, I was as hard core of a PC only guy as they come. I bought my first mac ONLY so I could learn my way around the OS and therefore expand client base to include mac users. After using both side by side for many years, I got to the point where I could no longer argue with results. They are hands down a better value for my mission and the mission of most others that I know. If they're not a better value for you then they're not. But to be perfectly blunt, I did this shit for a  living for many years. So please quote me and try to make out like I don't know what I'm talking about because it's disrespectful and quite frankly, kind of annoying.

If it helps to put things into perspective I actually primarily use Linux, and only use Windows for stuff like games and hobby stuff (e.g. Adobe photoshop / premier etc).

So I'm not sure how other than not having a bloated Windows operating system, Apple would get more 'torque' out of their computers than a PC.

People think that PCs == Microsoft, but it's not.

[Aractus]

LMAO. I give up. You move the goalposts every time you are proved wrong, it's sad and pathetic.

I am not moving any goalposts. You showed me an Amazon link that I cannot buy from, and I pointed out that there's nowhere that I, or for that matter anyone, knows where they can get a genuine battery from except from an Apple store where they have to pay for a way overpriced service. I did mention the battery is the part that wears out the fastest - do you dispute this?

A page showing you how to replace a battery is useless unless you can buy it in the first place. Show me where I can get a genuine Macbook battery for the cost of the part in Australia? As I mentioned, I'm not even convinced that your Amazon link is to a genuine dealer, it is most likely a recycled used battery.

Then you have the audacity to complain that they can't be shipped to Australia by air, like that has any bearing on whether MacBooks are user-serviceable or not.

They aren't sold to Australia at all. But IF they were, by sea you would have to wait about 6 weeks. Do you think that's a reasonable time to wait while you can't use your computer?

Whatever you want to call it, it doesn't matter. I'm not getting into an argument over the features / "durability designs" of MacBooks vs other laptops. Laptops are all different.

No they aren't, they all conform to a standardised heuristic.

Still irrelevant to the discussion. Also, I'm not sure how long you've been around consumer electronics, but generally speaking water based liquid + electronics never mix. Again, this is about selling products to a general user base, not you. You sound like you spills stuff on laptops way more than the average consumer. Apple don't care about you; they care about regular people who don't spill stuff on laptops (I've *never* spilled stuff on my laptop, because I know not to have a drink next to a laptop).

Tib, I'm older than you. When I was in early primary school (like year 2) we had monochrome Macs for crying out loud. You are now the one moving the goalpost - what I said is that in any decent high-end laptop the keyboard is liquid-resistant... meaning it drains away from the electronics. If it never comes in contact with the electronics then there's never a problem.

Like I said, I spill shit on my keyboard about once to twice a year. That's why I keep a spare $15 keyboard on hand. I've already spilt shit in this keyboard, and apart from the sticky F7 key it still works like new.

No, it's a fact that there was a design flaw. It's your opinion that the flaw was deliberate. It's not the first time there's been a design flaw in an Apple product (remember the iPhone 4's antenna issue). Apple aren't perfect; nobody is claiming that. However they fixed the antenna issue and gave everyone a free case which solved the problem.

Anyway, as it happens, Apple are repairing these design flaws for laptops that are out of warranty: https://www.christopherprice.net/macbook...-2036.html

Don't think that's the attitude of a company that deliberately designed the flaw in the first place...unless of course you are delusional enough to think Apple likes wasting money.

It's not an opinion. If they did it once and then fixed their mistake it would be an opinion.

...oh, and no, like most of the human race I don't spill stuff on my electronics.

Oh I see. What about people with MS, or Parkinsons, or spina bifida, or cerebral palsy then?

My guess is you haven't been around many non-technical people. Non-technical people have problems turning laptops on and off, let alone changing a battery. In regards to the cost; there are likely computer repair shops which can do the replacement for a lower amount. I'm not sure, I've never replaced my battery via a third party, but given that the instructions for doing it are online, I would imagine computer repair shops would be able to undercut Apple.

Right, so no they can't because they can't get the batteries in the first place, and I'll explain this to you in detail. Whenever Apple finds out that one of their Chinese partners has been selling their batteries they cut them off. For that reason it is very difficult to find genuine importers who have genuine relationships with these companies to source the batteries direct.

[Tiberius]

I am not moving any goalposts. You showed me an Amazon link that I cannot buy from, and I pointed out that there's nowhere that I, or for that matter anyone, knows where they can get a genuine battery from except from an Apple store where they have to pay for a way overpriced service. I did mention the battery is the part that wears out the fastest - do you dispute this?

A page showing you how to replace a battery is useless unless you can buy it in the first place. Show me where I can get a genuine Macbook battery for the cost of the part in Australia? As I mentioned, I'm not even convinced that your Amazon link is to a genuine dealer, it is most likely a recycled used battery.

Go read up on this and apply it to your objections: https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tool...-Goalposts

"Demanding from an opponent that he or she address more and more points after the initial counter-argument has been satisfied refusing to conceded or accept the opponent’s argument."

You said "User-serviceable means that you can replace the most common bits that wear out - in a laptop that's means the battery is the most important."

I linked to a website giving detailed instructions on how to replace the battery. That alone disproved your point.

You then complained about the fact that you had to ignore a warning sticker, and then said "...where are you going to buy a new battery from? You can't..."

I linked to Amazon where people are selling batteries for MacBooks. That again, disproved your new point about not being able to buy batteries.

You then complained that Amazon didn't ship those batteries to Australia.

So now, let's settle this once and for all shall we?

https://www.macfixit.com.au/apple-laptop-batteries

Boom. What's your next objection? Probably something even more ridiculous.

They aren't sold to Australia at all. But IF they were, by sea you would have to wait about 6 weeks. Do you think that's a reasonable time to wait while you can't use your computer?

https://www.macfixit.com.au/apple-laptop-batteries

Boom. Sold in Australia. Took me 5 seconds on Google.

No they aren't, they all conform to a standardised heuristic.

Bullshit they do. Pretty much the only standard these days is they have a touchpad and a keyboard. There are laptops out there with detachable screens, with touchscreens, with or without CD trays, etc.

Look, the point is, you shouldn't just assume some feature that exists on another laptop, or even most laptops, exists on some other laptop. That's why you list the specs alongside the laptop you are selling.

Tib, I'm older than you. When I was in early primary school (like year 2) we had monochrome Macs for crying out loud. You are now the one moving the goalpost - what I said is that in any decent high-end laptop the keyboard is liquid-resistant... meaning it drains away from the electronics. If it never comes in contact with the electronics then there's never a problem.

Like I said, I spill shit on my keyboard about once to twice a year. That's why I keep a spare $15 keyboard on hand. I've already spilt shit in this keyboard, and apart from the sticky F7 key it still works like new.

How am I moving the goalposts exactly? I'm not the one making the claim here; you are. I was the one who didn't want to get into an argument over features of laptops, and I still don't, so I'm ending that here.

It's not an opinion. If they did it once and then fixed their mistake it would be an opinion.
[quote]

So...a company is only allowed to make one mistake, and if they make the same or a similar mistake again, they must have done it on purpose, even if they later admit to making a mistake and pay for repairs for out-of-warranty devices. Got it. Just wanted to make sure I understand what fantasy world of yours we were living in.

[quote]
Oh I see. What about people with MS, or Parkinsons, or spina bifida, or cerebral palsy then?

They make up a fraction of the population. They aren't the norm. Most laptop users do not spill things on laptops.

If a person with MS, or Parkinsons, etc came to me and asked me to recommend them a laptop, and said they often spill things, then I wouldn't recommend a MacBook. That doesn't mean MacBooks are a bad choice for anyone else. They just clearly aren't a good choice for people who have a tendency to spill things.

Right, so no they can't because they can't get the batteries in the first place, and I'll explain this to you in detail. Whenever Apple finds out that one of their Chinese partners has been selling their batteries they cut them off. For that reason it is very difficult to find genuine importers who have genuine relationships with these companies to source the batteries direct.

Have legitimately linked you to places where you can buy batteries. Your continual denial of this blatant fact is scary.

[The Grand Nudger]

I have pieces of many computers, not all of which are contained within the same case (or, indeed..even -in- a case, lol).....all cobbled together as games get higher reqs and I find new additions to my digital bric-a-brac collection.  

My wifi tower and repeater array is homemade......and sits on top of a corn silo.  Sub-ISP pays me with free internet for the solid, lol.

[johan]

If it helps to put things into perspective I actually primarily use Linux, and only use Windows for stuff like games and hobby stuff (e.g. Adobe photoshop / premier etc).

So I'm not sure how other than not having a bloated Windows operating system, Apple would get more 'torque' out of their computers than a PC.

People think that PCs == Microsoft, but it's not.

Not having a bloated operating system is more or less exactly how Apple gets more torque out of their hardware IME. Kind of the same way you can take hardware that would be positively anemic with any current version of Windows running on it, but that same hardware usually runs great with Linux. The difference is OSX can run software that those who aren't software engineers and/or super geeks have actually heard of. 

Don't get me wrong, I love my Linux box. I just don't do great with memorizing obscure command line strings so I never had the patience to try to run Linux as my main machine.

[Aractus]

You said "User-serviceable means that you can replace the most common bits that wear out - in a laptop that's means the battery is the most important."

I linked to a website giving detailed instructions on how to replace the battery. That alone disproved your point.

No it doesn't, you need to be able to buy the replacement part you're replacing.

I linked to Amazon where people are selling batteries for MacBooks. That again, disproved your new point about not being able to buy batteries.

And with no evidence that they're even genuine new batteries. Which I doubt, because like I said Apple's policy is to cease business with any manufacturer they find out has been selling them to third parties.

So now, let's settle this once and for all shall we?

https://www.macfixit.com.au/apple-laptop-batteries

Boom. What's your next objection? Probably something even more ridiculous.

I wouldn't trust that company if they said the sky was blue. Firstly, their genuine batteries are labelled as "refurbished". Secondly their supposedly new batteries from supposed company "NewerTech" do not have a C-Tick. Seriously? On the actual NewerTech website there is no indication anywhere that they have been issued an electronics certification from any country - the US, the EU. A genuine electronics company would have the certification displayed so it can be verified by users. Or how about this iphone5 battery supposedly new with a 2012 manufacture date? Like I said I wouldn't trust them.

Bullshit they do. Pretty much the only standard these days is they have a touchpad and a keyboard. There are laptops out there with detachable screens, with touchscreens, with or without CD trays, etc.

Look, the point is, you shouldn't just assume some feature that exists on another laptop, or even most laptops, exists on some other laptop. That's why you list the specs alongside the laptop you are selling.

Monitor, USB, power cable, hard drive, display adapter, ...

[Tiberius]

No it doesn't, you need to be able to buy the replacement part you're replacing.

Which you can.

And with no evidence that they're even genuine new batteries. Which I doubt, because like I said Apple's policy is to cease business with any manufacturer they find out has been selling them to third parties.

A battery is a battery. You can often buy non-brand batteries for laptops and other devices which are cheaper than the "official" batteries. If it works and doesn't blow up, it's a decent battery. Doesn't have to have the Apple seal of approval. Plus, this does nothing to negate your original definition of "user-serviceable". You made no stipulations that the replacement battery had to be "official". Yet another example of you moving the goalposts because you can't accept the fact that in this instance, you are just wrong.

I wouldn't trust that company if they said the sky was blue. Firstly, their genuine batteries are labelled as "refurbished". Secondly their supposedly new batteries from supposed company "NewerTech" do not have a C-Tick. Seriously? On the actual NewerTech website there is no indication anywhere that they have been issued an electronics certification from any country - the US, the EU. A genuine electronics company would have the certification displayed so it can be verified by users. Or how about this iphone5 battery supposedly new with a 2012 manufacture date? Like I said I wouldn't trust them.

Sigh.

Monitor, USB, power cable, hard drive, display adapter, ...

OK, firstly laptops definitely do not come with a monitor as a standard. That's absurd. Most people use the actual screen that comes with their laptop, and connect it to a monitor if they actually need it.

USB. Fine. Which version though? 2 or 3? How many ports?

Power Cable - Ahhh...you got me there. Yes, power cables come as standard. Good job Apple supplies one, else you might deem them even more inferior.

Hard Drive. Yes, but what kind? SSD or no?

Display Adapter. This was never a standard. Depending on the laptop, you could get VGA, DVI, or HDMI (more recently). As laptops get thinner, you might even see mini-HDMI.