John Oliver...Spotlight on Johnson and Stein

[Minimalist]

If 10% bothered to vote they would still have the whole power of the government behind them.  Holding-your-nose-until-you-turn-blue never worked for me when I was a kid, either.

[Aroura]

Scenario:
Enough people become disinfranchised, there comes a year when ther is a STOP voting movement. Most people don't vote. We have the worst candidates ever. An insane meglomaniac is elected, congress and the house are a mess, as people fight over who, if anyone, won and who is in control, and the next thing we know we have a Kings instead of a president, because we all stopped voting and didn't DO anything about it.

Not voting is such an inaction, it could allow for much, much worse to happen. If you think we need to burn it all to the ground so we can rebuild it better next time, great, fantastic, have fun with that. Because not voting is just a LAZY (and pretty ineffective way) of doing that without really doing anything. IMO, anyway. Of course, voting is also just a way of allowing the same shit, bitching about it, and not really doing anything.

See, the functional working parts of our government are tied to these messy ones. I vote, and will continue to do so because it matters to my community if that school bond measure asses or not, it matters who my Governor, mayor and city council persons are. It's hard to talk people out of voting for the one screwy thing while asking them to keep voting for the rest. And if we stopped voting on everything, it would be an utter disaster for the common person.

[Aroura]

We actually could vote our way out of it, but both parties are counting on the fact that you'll be so scared of the other guy that you'll vote for theirs regardless.  As long as you vote out of fear, the two parties can maintain the status quo that they've created.

I don't really have the answer exactly how to fix it, but I do know that repeatedly voting for the lesser of two evils and expecting something to change is insane.

Tell me how, as a nation, we could vote our way out of it.

Getting Jill Stein elected doesn't fix any of it.  Even if we all voted for her, it doesn't, inherently fix the 2 party system, as the house and congress aren't likely to let anything pass that allows them to lose power either.

[The Grand Nudger]

Scenario:
Enough people become disinfranchised, there comes a year when ther is a STOP voting movement.  Most people don't vote. We have the worst candidates ever.  An insane meglomaniac is elected, congress and the house are a mess, as people fight over who, if anyone, won and who is in control, and the next thing we know we have a Kings instead of a president, because we all stopped voting and didn't DO anything about it.  

Has it occurred to you that you might be describing -this- year.  We're within single digits of the majority of americans in this country not voting already. I wasn;t exagerating earlier when I mentioned the 51% of 57%.  I think we're well past kings, one bad presidency won't bring us to a monarchy or we'd already have one.

Not voting is such an inaction, it could allow for much, much worse to happen.  If you think we need to burn it all to the ground so we can rebuild it better next time, great, fantastic, have fun with that. Because not voting is just a LAZY (and pretty ineffective way) of doing that without really doing anything.  IMO, anyway.  Of course, voting is also just a way of allowing the same shit, bitching about it, and not really doing anything.

Who said anything about burning it all down?  See, you'v been coopted by fearmongering.  I;m talking about insisting on building it up.  It's the players we have on-stage that have been busily burning it down.  They're been very, very productive on that count, don't you think?  

See, the functional working parts of our government are tied to these messy ones.  I vote, and will continue to do so because it matters to my community if that school bond measure asses or not, it matters who my Governor, mayor and city council persons are. It's hard to talk people out of voting for the one screwy thing while asking them to keep voting for the rest.  And if we stopped voting on everything, it would be an utter disaster for the common person.

I don't mind a mess.  What we have right now is a dumpster fire.  WQhat is this, anyway, the all or nothing gambit?  I'll pass.  Vote on things that matter to you, vote for candidates that you prefer.  I encourage you to do so.  I'd just -love- it if I was given that opportunity. Until such a time, I'll be a non-participator. It works, we've done it before. I wonder if you'd have levied the same comments towards a draft protester or jim crow dissenter for their refusals as you have towards mine? All I do is tell people it's okay to say no. It;s something we need to hear from time to time, clearly.

@Min, the full power of a government elected by ten percent isn't exactly that impressive to me (look at the state of our own elected by 25%ish). If our state and federal overlords were willing to drive the whole thing over a cliff rather than make changes...how would voting stop them from doing that anyway?

[Minimalist]

Tell me how, as a nation, we could vote our way out of it.

You DO what fucking Bernie said to do.  If the Democrats aren't "progressive" enough for you then join them in large numbers and start INFLUENCING THEIR POLICIES FROM INSIDE and make them more PROGRESSIVE.

The model for this is what the jesus freak asswipes did to the republicunts in the 70's/80's.  Take over the party and then you can call the shots and nominate the candidates. 

However the reason for bolding and capitalizing the DO in the first sentence is that you can't sit on your asses with your noses in your cell phones and wait for it to happen.  You actually have to DO SOMETHING, like Bernie said.

https://go.berniesanders.com/page/s/volu...for-bernie

We must launch a political revolution which engages millions of Americans from all walks of life in the struggle for real change. This country belongs to all of us, not just the billionaire class. And that’s what this campaign is all about.

To win this campaign, all of us must be deeply involved. Our movement needs people like you to help it succeed.

Here's a guy who predicted accurately what would happen to the GOP.

Mark my word, if and when these preachers get control of the [Republican] party, and they're sure trying to do so, it's going to be a terrible damn problem. Frankly, these people frighten me. Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and won't compromise. I know, I've tried to deal with them.


-- Barry Goldwater

[Aroura]

That's all still rhetoric. What are we supposed to actually do?

Don't vote...so...no one gets elected? Or someone does anyway, more likely. And then...the people in charge realize we don't care? And then how does that magically translate into something more fixable?
They aren't going to give up power just because 90% of people don't vote. NOT voting is a non action that isn't going to fix anything.

I think we need to elect someone who will try to change things from the top down, hence Bernie's (and god forbid, even Trumps) appeal.

[The Grand Nudger]

Their power, such as it is, -comes- from votes.  There's no "giving it up"... if people don't vote for them, they -have- none to give up in the first place. Convincing you, and you convincing yourself that you are powerless is step one of the con, and it;s obviously worked. There's no way to get yourself out of this so long as you imagine that their power arises, somehow, from themselves and not from you. Or for being so willing to blame those who -won;t- vote for shit you don;t even want, for all the shit you don;t want. That;s on you, you bought the bill of sale on the promise that it contained actual goods. Not I. I know better.

 Maybe, just maybe, our establishment will up the quality of their candidates, because..you know..they want to keep dipping their hands in the till...don't they? Betting on avarice is usually a good bet. While we're at it, sure, go eat them alive from the inside, that would give me someone to vote for all the same - I'll be there when you need me. I can't do that, though. I'm not a politician, nor can I be a part of a movement that doesn't exist.

Meanwhile, non-participation is an action that has worked. But go ahead, disenfranchise me now, and beg for my vote later. That's how the repubs drove all those minority voters to the polls. That's gonna work.

[Minimalist]

Maybe, just maybe, our establishment will up the quality of their candidates,

Do you really think that has been the trend?

[The Grand Nudger]

We've given them no reason to offer a better quality candidate.  If someone will write you a blank check for a trump, or a clinton...you take it.  They're acting exactly as they would be expected to. Hell, I don't even blame them, I blame us, obviously. We're the ones with those all important votes, after all. We're the ones that pay their way into the themepark...and then bitch about what they do once they're in.... as though they've done something unexpected or out of character.

[Minimalist]

We've created a system which discourages the best and brightest from even running.  16-18 months of active campaigning plus exploratory committees and fund-raising before that.  It's insane.