Explaining the fact that we exist

[Asmodee]

This is a question that I wrestled with superficially when I first became an atheist. I was content with my answer to this question for a while, but after a recent discussion with a Christian friend of mine, the entire topic just became confusing to me. And, like I said in my introduction (http://atheistforums.org/thread-45867.html), I need some help when walking through difficult questions.

The question is this: "There were many transitional points in our universe's history that led to us existing. If one of them failed to produce the results that it did, we wouldn't be here, existing. Isn't it too much of a coincidence? Each transition point was against huge odds, and each of them was an extraordinary coincidence. How is it possible that we are existing against such overwhelming odds?"

I had a basic response to this like, "just because it's extremely unlikely, doesn't mean it can't happen", but I am not satisfied with the answer. Can anybody lead me through the basic thought process behind why we can exist against such overwhelming odds? I have my own thoughts, but I am willing, and needing to restart my thought process. 

Thanks!

I like to look at it this way.  Flip a coin in the air as hard as you can.  Now, once it comes to rest, imagine all the things it had to go through to land in that exact spot.  What are the chances that it would have flipped through the air exactly as it did, the exact atoms of the coin coming into contact with those exact atoms of air and coming to rest touching the exact atoms of the floor?  The chances of it happening exactly like that are so remote that there is no way one could possibly have expected it to turn out that way before flipping the coin.  The problem is you're not looking at it before the fact, you're looking at it after the fact.  At that point the "chances" that it would happen that way are completely irrelevant because it did happen that way.  What would have been different if it had happened another way?  Who knows?  Maybe it could have struck and broke a light bulb.  Maybe it could have chanced to hit a passing fly.  Maybe something totally unexpected and different could have happened, but it didn't.

So, what are the chances the universe ended up exactly as it did?  100%.  Why?  Because you're looking at it after the fact, when it did happen.  The "what are the chances" argument is a dishonest trick theists like to use to pretend that it would be impossible for things to happen exactly as they did without guidance.  The mental trickery assumes that things were intended to be exactly this way, that the way things happened is somehow special, which there is no evidence for.  Back to the coin analogy, when you are asking yourself "What are the chances the coin would fly through the air exactly like it did?" did the way it flew threw the air seem in any way special?  Did if travel exactly as you intended?  The answer to both of those is probably "no".  So do the chances of it doing exactly as it did mystify you?  Again, probably now.  But you could NEVER do it again, and that is where the trickery lies.  You're not talking about doing it again, you're talking about what already happened.  What are the chance?  It doesn't matter because it did happen and there's nothing mystical about it.

[ApeNotKillApe]

[Whateverist]

This is a question that I wrestled with superficially when I first became an atheist. I was content with my answer to this question for a while, but after a recent discussion with a Christian friend of mine, the entire topic just became confusing to me. And, like I said in my introduction (http://atheistforums.org/thread-45867.html), I need some help when walking through difficult questions.

The question is this: "There were many transitional points in our universe's history that led to us existing. If one of them failed to produce the results that it did, we wouldn't be here, existing. Isn't it too much of a coincidence? Each transition point was against huge odds, and each of them was an extraordinary coincidence. How is it possible that we are existing against such overwhelming odds?"

I had a basic response to this like, "just because it's extremely unlikely, doesn't mean it can't happen", but I am not satisfied with the answer. Can anybody lead me through the basic thought process behind why we can exist against such overwhelming odds? I have my own thoughts, but I am willing, and needing to restart my thought process. 

Thanks!

Oh hey, I feel you.  Those theists just like to try to confuse us with their complicated arguments.  I can't disprove them either.  But listen brother, so long as you remember in your heart just how much we both hate God, we can't lose.

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Psyche!  It is a wonder you ever became an atheist if you're impressed with that sort of bollocks.  Nice try, missionary.

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[chimp3]

Atheists cannot account for apparent cosmological fine-tuning except by appealing to necessity (brute fact) or chance (multiverse). If necessary then the obvious question arises. Why must the physical universe be as it is and no other way? If by chance, then an infinite regress ensues. Why is the multiverse fine-tuned to generate physical universes that are fine-tuned?

Please people! Will all non-physicists stop debating physics. Everyone looks a fool.

[GrandizerII]

That is not exactly what I meant. If we live in a Multiverse then it is sufficiently fine-tuned to produce at least one physical universe in which life is possibly. This is like saying that if our universe is fine tuned the it produced at least one planet capable of supporting life.

No, it isn't/wouldn't be fine-tuned, lol. I do not understand your reasoning, imagine a monkey typing on a keyboard, give it infinite time and there's a possibility that it will write a whole game, think GTA V, or one of the big, complex games. It wasn't fine-tuned to write the game, though, it was just clicking the buttons randomly. That is similiar to the multiverse theory, if I am not wrong. We might need our physicist to confirm this. However, iirc I've heard that it's not 100% that the monkey will write a game, even given infinite time, you can look it up if you're interested.

You don't need a physicist as a multiverse that is postulated does not have to be a science argument, only that it is logically possible. Logically possible alternatives to God means God is not logically necessary.

[Simon Moon]

Atheists cannot account for apparent cosmological fine-tuning except by appealing to necessity (brute fact) or chance (multiverse). If necessary then the obvious question arises. Why must the physical universe be as it is and no other way? If by chance, then an infinite regress ensues. Why is the multiverse fine-tuned to generate physical universes that are fine-tuned?

A 'fine tuned' universe argues against a god, not for one. Or at least one that is omnipotent.

If the god of classical theism existed, why would he need to create a universe that is fine tuned for life? Why would he create a universe that looks exactly as if it is operating via natural processes?

Proof of a god created universe would be one that looks like it should not be able to support life, yet does.

Our universe happens to be one that is able to sustain life, it was not created with us in mind. This is the case whether there is a multiverse or just this one.

[Fake Messiah]

Not to mention the fact that there is life inside of pregnant women, if we all came from no where how is it that we're able to multiple in vast numbers? By sperm and  an egg correct? Well how could a sperm and an egg produce an unborn child if there was not a source behind it?

How could god be involved into sperm to egg fertilization when it is estimated that around 70 percent of fertilized eggs in women never go on to become a full-term pregnancy? It must be some retarded God indeed doing that and if it is Christian god then it does makes sense, because in the Bible he's pretty retarded guy like in Matthew 16:28: Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.

Giving people fake prophecies. This Jesus couldn't be more fake even if his name was Fakey McFakeface. And Muslim God with his claims that world is flat and Sun sets in pile of mud - no wonder he doesn't get around female anatomy. Most of the time he probably goes to the asshole thinking it's a vagina.

[robvalue]

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This is a question that I wrestled with superficially when I first became an atheist. I was content with my answer to this question for a while, but after a recent discussion with a Christian friend of mine, the entire topic just became confusing to me. And, like I said in my introduction (http://atheistforums.org/thread-45867.html), I need some help when walking through difficult questions.

The question is this: "There were many transitional points in our universe's history that led to us existing. If one of them failed to produce the results that it did, we wouldn't be here, existing. Isn't it too much of a coincidence? Each transition point was against huge odds, and each of them was an extraordinary coincidence. How is it possible that we are existing against such overwhelming odds?"

I had a basic response to this like, "just because it's extremely unlikely, doesn't mean it can't happen", but I am not satisfied with the answer. Can anybody lead me through the basic thought process behind why we can exist against such overwhelming odds? I have my own thoughts, but I am willing, and needing to restart my thought process. 

Thanks!

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First and fore most the existence of human beings explains that there is a God who created all, how can atoms, protons and neutrons create a human being there is no way? Not too mention the inside organs, for our organs  to be so detailed in position, how can it be possible that we come from no where? Not to mention the fact that there is life inside of pregnant women, if we all came from no where how is it that we're able to multiple in vast numbers? By sperm and  an egg correct? Well how could a sperm and an egg produce an unborn child if there was not a source behind it? The ocean is so vast with water and the sky is a reflection of the waters!!!

It's really complicated, you don't understand it, therefor it was a zombie Jew on stick? This is called the argument from incredulity. You can't imagine any other way except your own magic story. Any other magic story works just as well, as does "it just happened, deal with it" or perhaps the amazing "let's learn more about it".

[RozKek]

This is a question that I wrestled with superficially when I first became an atheist. I was content with my answer to this question for a while, but after a recent discussion with a Christian friend of mine, the entire topic just became confusing to me. And, like I said in my introduction (http://atheistforums.org/thread-45867.html), I need some help when walking through difficult questions.

The question is this: "There were many transitional points in our universe's history that led to us existing. If one of them failed to produce the results that it did, we wouldn't be here, existing. Isn't it too much of a coincidence? Each transition point was against huge odds, and each of them was an extraordinary coincidence. How is it possible that we are existing against such overwhelming odds?"

I had a basic response to this like, "just because it's extremely unlikely, doesn't mean it can't happen", but I am not satisfied with the answer. Can anybody lead me through the basic thought process behind why we can exist against such overwhelming odds? I have my own thoughts, but I am willing, and needing to restart my thought process. 

Thanks!

First and fore most the existence of human beings explains that there is a God who created all, how can atoms, protons and neutrons create a human being there is no way? Not too mention the inside organs, for our organs  to be so detailed in position, how can it be possible that we come from no where? Not to mention the fact that there is life inside of pregnant women, if we all came from no where how is it that we're able to multiple in vast numbers? By sperm and  an egg correct? Well how could a sperm and an egg produce an unborn child if there was not a source behind it? The ocean is so vast with water and the sky is a reflection of the waters!!!

Just want to highlight this: ^a perfect example of what I've been pointing out, the bias we have towards ourselves, 'we are more than atoms therefore we need to be intelligently designed' :]

I'm not going to answer this, because I'm quite sure we've been through this over and over again with others and others again. But may I ask, TL, have you ever tried to find an actual, maybe scientific answer for this question? Or did you accept it very quickly because it agrees with your views?

[RozKek]

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First and fore most the existence of human beings explains that there is a God who created all, how can atoms, protons and neutrons create a human being there is no way? Not too mention the inside organs, for our organs  to be so detailed in position, how can it be possible that we come from no where? Not to mention the fact that there is life inside of pregnant women, if we all came from no where how is it that we're able to multiple in vast numbers? By sperm and  an egg correct? Well how could a sperm and an egg produce an unborn child if there was not a source behind it? The ocean is so vast with water and the sky is a reflection of the waters!!!

It's really complicated, you don't understand it, therefor it was a zombie Jew on stick? This is called the argument from incredulity. You can't imagine any other way except your own magic story. Any other magic story works just as well, as does "it just happened, deal with it" or perhaps the amazing "let's learn more about it".

There's a name for it? Thanks :p

Also, I'm glad you never left, just wanted to say it, lol.