Prayer

[Asmodee]

As for my own experience, I've only told a handful of people so don't feel offended lol.

Of course not.  As I said, I understand that it can be quite personal.  I will survive my curiosity.

You seem to be all over the place here.  In one breath you're bending over backward to explain what the afterlife will be like, in the next you simply "don't know".  I suppose the afterlife is something you've given thought to, the things I am asking are not, so I guess it's understandable.  A little frustrating on my part, but I'll get over that too.  I would mention, though, that if every single miracle in the Bible, regardless which one you choose, has a clear and obvious purpose behind it and there are miracles today about which that cannot be said, that kind of suggests that the "miracles" of today are not the same thing as what's mentioned in the Bible.  The "God works in mysterious ways" excuse just doesn't do it for me here because the God of the Bible, even just the NT, doesn't work like this.  HE didn't change, but miracles did?  That doesn't make any sense.  You may believe that miracles in the NT were designed to bolster the burgeoning church, but even you must admit that's a personal opinion, not a fact.  The fact is that each and every miracle, bolstering belief aside, had a clear and obvious purpose in the Bible and miracles today do not.  In fact I don't know if they EVER do today.  At some point you have to address the fact that these things are not consistent, that this is not how the God of the Bible works, that not only did God NEVER do something so petty as to put on a laser light show for the masses, Jesus actually REFUSED to do just that, to display his power just to prove his power.  Fatima doesn't match God's MO.  What happened in Fatima, that's not how the God of the Bible operates.  That's not how the Bible says God works.  So I can't help but wonder, why are miracles so petty and seemingly pointless today when NO miracle of the Bible EVER even so much as "seemed" petty or pointless?

I know that's pretty harsh, but from my point of view it's all magic tricks, so to see a clear difference between what was written about and what is claimed today, that is pretty damning evidence that the "miracle" of Fatima wasn't really what was claimed.

But, I think you already answered that anyway when you essentially said that you just believe what the church tells you to believe.  I could easily point out some very good reasons not to just take them at their word, such as the fact that your faith pays for the golden throne the pope sits upon and all, but I'm sure you've heard it all before.  I don't think this is going to be the conversation I was hoping for anyone since "blind faith in the Church" was already one of your answers.  You haven't really "figured it out", it's more like you just "believe what you're told to", and that kind of precludes having the conversation I was hoping to have.

[Drich]

Prayer is not about God knowing, It is about us acknowledging, and a willingness to change.

Maybe but I still ask for stuff.

so do I


Still a big negatory on the billion dollar power ball though..

---

So, prayer is NOT about begging for sh*t, is it? Let me present exhibit A:

Matthew 6:9-13 (ESV)

9 Pray then like this:
“Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name.
10 Your kingdom come, your will be done,
    on earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread,
12 and forgive us our debts,
    as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation,
    but deliver us from evil."

Not even a "please"...
So I guess Jesus didn't know how to pray, huh?

nuppe..

Again, Daily bread is not 'stuff' it is need.

Forgive our debts is a conditional request. To for give our sins in the same exact way we forgive others.

---

Forgive my ignorance, but if you're the type to pray, wouldn't your only real "need" be to die and get to Heaven as quickly as possible?  This life is unimportant, right?  It's just the after party that matters.  So all you would really "need" is to get the hell out of here before you fuck it up and your invitation gets tossed in the trash.

Forgive My ignorance... Who are to identify need as death? Why is Heaven the only goal? What of those like you who remain after we have gone? Who says this life is unimportant? In what book chapter or verse does it say that life is unimportant? that anything we are given is unimportant??? Who's is saying that we can fuck up anything once we have the atonement Christ offers?

Seems to me you assume too much. Maybe you should ask some more basic questions.

---

example?

Alright, now that I think about it, deliberately obscuring your own existence to all but the credulous, the delusional and the ignorant and then commanding that everyone recognise your existence based on literally the worst evidence ever? And then destroying those who don't? That isn't insecure; it's completely insane. And not the 'quirky' kind of insanity, I mean ludicrous beyond coherence and cruel beyond measure.

What are you talking about?!!?! Ever heard of doubting Thomas? Was He condemned? Was He forgotten or cast out be Christ?

No Thomas was Given Exactly what he needed to establish and maintain his belief even unto a martyr's death.

The Only thing Thomas had to do first was to meet Christ on His terms. In that instance be in a certain room/place at a certain time!!! and Christ showed up.

He has done the same exact thing for me. I am not a faith person. I need to see hold and interact with someone/thing to grasp it. God provided me with what I needed to establish and maintain my belief as well. All I had to do is follow His plan outlined in Luke 11. The same plan We all have to follow if we want to interact with God.

---

Then maybe you could clear something up for me. 

I know this was not meant for me and sorry CL if I am over stepping.

I've chatted with various other people on various forums, some of them Catholics, who believe every brisk breeze is a miracle and absolute proof that God is real.  That last Catholic I remember talking to pretty much accepted any and every claim of a miracle as absolute proof, even if it was so week that the Catholic Church would not recognize it as a miracle.  So I have two questions.

On one hand I cringe at those guys, or rather those who want to believe things so badly everything becomes a mircle, but at the same time.. I do know that once you seen the hand of God work in your life that you can't just keep it bottled up. because for you despite what other may think say or do, you know it to be true.

First, the big one (I know it's more than one, but it's a general theme rather than a single question).  Miracles were obviously not rare in the Bible.

 Actually they were. remember the bible represents about a 3000 year span and about an 1/8th of the bible's content deals directly with miracles.

Why are they so rare now? 

there not, I would say they happen in about the same frequency, it now we just call them by different names. "Unexplain medical phenoma or mis diagnosis." (as to why somone wakes up after being pronounced 'brain dead.')
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2016/01/...36958.html
http://www.westernjournalism.com/man-tho...-12-years/

People simply choose not to believe and create an alternative narrative.

What purpose did they serve in the past that no longer needs served now?  Why did God change?

beggs the question (the logical fallacy) You wrongfully assume there is no purpose today.

When in fact the purpose is the same, but on an indivisual level, and not for the masses or crowds. God didn't change here. we did or rather our ablity to have a direct relationship with him did. Before in the OT and even in the days when Christ was alive, the Holy Spirit worked though prophets to assure the crowds that the man claiming to be a servant of God was indeed who he said he was... Today we all have access to this very same God on a personal level. Miracles on this level is the 'personal proof' some of us need to ensure we are indeed working for the very same God.

Second, what types of miracles do you believe happen today?

 Whatever needs to happen for an indivisual to be assured. In short it depends on the heart or person God is directly working with.

Are they anything like the big things of the past or are they now more subtle, more "undisprovable", if you will?

 what is a big thing? Can you name one thing in science that is "undisproovable?" so than why the double standard?

Again, why did God change? 

Nothing has.. Look at the plagues.. For everything God had moses do on a large scale Pharaoh's wizards was able to conjurors on a smaller one.. all except the Passover of the 10th plague.
For those who do not want to believe God always leaves an out for their minds.

Are there any specific miracles in modern times that you believe?

Just the ones I've been involved with.

  Are those miracles consistent with stories of miracles in the Bible? 

Yes

For instance, every single miracle in the Bible had a clear purpose.  There was a clear reason behind every single one.

Indeed.

 

A statue crying, not so much.  So if miracles are not just weird things that happen which can't be explained empirically, again, why did God change?

Again, beggs the question, who said God did?

I'm sure you probably read all that and are now thinking, "It's a trap!", "What an argumentative dick!" or both.

I see someone who simple has not experienced what others have.

  I am honestly curious.  Of course if you say anything which I disagree with or which doesn't make sense to me I'm going to respond, but that's not my purpose here.  The last Catholic I talked to was...shall we say, "unreasonable". 

Good news everyone! I'm not Catholic!!!

When he farted it was a miracle that proved God was real, even though there was no evidence he actually farted.  You seem, at least from the little I've read so far, a little more reasonable in your beliefs.  I'm not hoping to convert you, you have no chance of converted me (unless that's a God in your pocket, but I assume you're just happy to see me), but perhaps we could understand each other a little better.

[Catholic_Lady]

As for my own experience, I've only told a handful of people so don't feel offended lol.

Of course not.  As I said, I understand that it can be quite personal.  I will survive my curiosity.

You seem to be all over the place here.  In one breath you're bending over backward to explain what the afterlife will be like, in the next you simply "don't know".  I suppose the afterlife is something you've given thought to, the things I am asking are not, so I guess it's understandable.  A little frustrating on my part, but I'll get over that too.  I would mention, though, that if every single miracle in the Bible, regardless which one you choose, has a clear and obvious purpose behind it and there are miracles today about which that cannot be said, that kind of suggests that the "miracles" of today are not the same thing as what's mentioned in the Bible.  The "God works in mysterious ways" excuse just doesn't do it for me here because the God of the Bible, even just the NT, doesn't work like this.  HE didn't change, but miracles did?  That doesn't make any sense.  You may believe that miracles in the NT were designed to bolster the burgeoning church, but even you must admit that's a personal opinion, not a fact.  The fact is that each and every miracle, bolstering belief aside, had a clear and obvious purpose in the Bible and miracles today do not.  In fact I don't know if they EVER do today.  At some point you have to address the fact that these things are not consistent, that this is not how the God of the Bible works, that not only did God NEVER do something so petty as to put on a laser light show for the masses, Jesus actually REFUSED to do just that, to display his power just to prove his power.  Fatima doesn't match God's MO.  What happened in Fatima, that's not how the God of the Bible operates.  That's not how the Bible says God works.  So I can't help but wonder, why are miracles so petty and seemingly pointless today when NO miracle of the Bible EVER even so much as "seemed" petty or pointless?

I know that's pretty harsh, but from my point of view it's all magic tricks, so to see a clear difference between what was written about and what is claimed today, that is pretty damning evidence that the "miracle" of Fatima wasn't really what was claimed.

But, I think you already answered that anyway when you essentially said that you just believe what the church tells you to believe.  I could easily point out some very good reasons not to just take them at their word, such as the fact that your faith pays for the golden throne the pope sits upon and all, but I'm sure you've heard it all before.  I don't think this is going to be the conversation I was hoping for anyone since "blind faith in the Church" was already one of your answers.  You haven't really "figured it out", it's more like you just "believe what you're told to", and that kind of precludes having the conversation I was hoping to have.

Dismissing my beliefs as blind faith is a bit insulting considering you don't hardly know anything about me or how much I've thought things through.

Yes, I do trust the church's judgements on approved miracles, but that goes along with the fact that I've chosen to stay catholic in the first place. So of course I trust them as a reliable source when it comes to miracles.

Anyhow, sorry I haven't been of more help to you. If youre curious about our beliefs, I would recommend joining a forum called catholic answers forum. It's pretty active and there are plenty of ppl there way more qualified to help you than myself.

[Asmodee]

Forgive My ignorance... Who are to identify need as death? Why is Heaven the only goal? What of those like you who remain after we have gone? Who says this life is unimportant? In what book chapter or verse does it say that life is unimportant? that anything we are given is unimportant??? Who's is saying that we can fuck up anything once we have the atonement Christ offers?

Seems to me you assume too much. Maybe you should ask some more basic questions.

---

Hit a nerve did I?  Christianity is, at its core, a method of getting into Heaven.  That is the ultimate goal of being a Christian, THE single, most important thing one can hope for.
I suppose those like me who remain after you're gone will spend a week or so just basking in the glory of ignorance taken, and then get to work fixing all the shit "good Christians" have fucked up over the years.  I'm pretty sure there will be boobies out at the party and I can't wait!
As for where it says anything we are given is unimportant, I made no claim of the Bible saying shit.  But when you consider the temporary vs the eternal, one seems irrelevant compared to the other.  If my teenage daughter comes home with a "temporary tattoo", that is unimportant.  If she comes home with a "tattoo", I have to kill someone.  Use some common sense.  I'm an atheist.  I probably don't get my beliefs from an ancient book written by goat herders who wiped their asses with their bare hands and then thought rinsing them in a mud puddle was good enough.
As for who says we can fuck up anything once we have atonement, maybe you're in one of those "once saved, always saved" bullshit religions.  I don't know.  But I'm pretty sure that if, after you're saved, you start raping dogs and killing babies you and Hitler aren't going to carpool to Heaven at the end of days.  And if you are in one of those once saved, always saved religions, relax, dude!  You got this!  Go out and get yourself a raging case of the herpes.  Hitler's warming up the car for you right now, I'm sure.  You're covered, so stop sweating the little shit like obeying God's will and whatnot.

[chimp3]

You obviously do not speak for all Christians. The pentecostals who comprise my nuclear family certainly do believe in magical responses from god. Food appearing, money, jobs, cancer "you foul demon begone".

So you would condemn all of Christianity because one branch acts in a way you would deem foolish?

I am not condemning anyone.

[Asmodee]

Then maybe you could clear something up for me. 

I know this was not meant for me and sorry CL if I am over stepping.

I don't mind hearing an opposing point of view.

I've chatted with various other people on various forums, some of them Catholics, who believe every brisk breeze is a miracle and absolute proof that God is real.  That last Catholic I remember talking to pretty much accepted any and every claim of a miracle as absolute proof, even if it was so week that the Catholic Church would not recognize it as a miracle.  So I have two questions.

On one hand I cringe at those guys, or rather those who want to believe things so badly everything becomes a mircle, but at the same time.. I do know that once you seen the hand of God work in your life that you can't just keep it bottled up. because for you despite what other may think say or do, you know it to be true.

I think that may be true of some of the more "colorful" religions, but not Catholicism.  It's a dry, boring, ritualistic religion without any spontaneity whatsoever, its every service a tedious ritual, scripted hundreds of years ago, much of it in Latin.

First, the big one (I know it's more than one, but it's a general theme rather than a single question).  Miracles were obviously not rare in the Bible.

 Actually they were. remember the bible represents about a 3000 year span and about an 1/8th of the bible's content deals directly with miracles.

Why are they so rare now? 

there not, I would say they happen in about the same frequency, it now we just call them by different names. "Unexplain medical phenoma or mis diagnosis." (as to why somone wakes up after being pronounced 'brain dead.')
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2016/01/...36958.html
http://www.westernjournalism.com/man-tho...-12-years/

You realize that you just said exactly the opposite of what I said and it makes no more sense the way you said it if your beliefs are true than it did the way I said it.  I said miracles were NOT rare, but now they are.  You just said miracles WERE rare, but now they're not.  So you refuted both parts of what I said and ended up canceling out your own argument.  AND THEN you went on to say they happened with the same frequency, that frequency being both very rare and extremely common, apparently.

Aside from that, "miracles" of today are petty shadows of the things mentioned in the Bible.  A person WHO WAS RECEIVING TREATMENT unexpectedly gets better vs walking on water.  The word "miracle", which used to mean "somethings miraculous", now means "something good for which you cannot find a viable and definitive alternative explanation".  It went from, "Wow!  God is POWERFUL!" to "Yeah, that was probably God."  That doesn't bother you at all?

And aside from THAT, the Bible clearly spells out in multiple places that the true believers are supposed to be able to perform ACTUAL miracles.  YOU can walk on water, move mountains, heal the sick, survive poison with no ill effects, etc.  Jesus himself said you could do all those things.  Peter actually did it for a short time until his faith wavered.

People simply choose not to believe and create an alternative narrative.

Or people simply choose to believe and create an alternative narrative.  Miracles as described in the Bible would be a damned site harder to explain away than, "My wart went away!  It's a miracle!"

What purpose did they serve in the past that no longer needs served now?  Why did God change?

beggs the question (the logical fallacy) You wrongfully assume there is no purpose today.

Bullshit.  I made no such assumption or claim.  That is actually a red herring.  I clearly said that miracles in the Bible ALWAYS had a clear and obvious purpose, "miracles" today do not have such a clear and obvious purpose.  If you disagree then name ONE miracle from the Bible where the purpose of the miracle was not clear and obvious.  Staff into a snake, show that God was more powerful.  Water from the rock, give drink to a thirsty people.  Water into wine, provide for a wedding.  Walk on water, get to a boat.  Fishes and loaves, feed the hungry.  Ten plagues, show God's power.  40 days and nights of rain, kill the infidels.  EVERY SINGLE TIME there was a clear, obvious reason.  I never said there was no "reason" behind miracles today, just that the "miracles" I always here about not only almost always have a very mundane explanation (I literally had someone believe that seeing a particular license plate qualified as a miracle), but there is NEVER a "clear and obvious" reason for the miracle.

When in fact the purpose is the same, but on an indivisual level, and not for the masses or crowds. God didn't change here. we did or rather our ablity to have a direct relationship with him did. Before in the OT and even in the days when Christ was alive, the Holy Spirit worked though prophets to assure the crowds that the man claiming to be a servant of God was indeed who he said he was... Today we all have access to this very same God on a personal level. Miracles on this level is the 'personal proof' some of us need to ensure we are indeed working for the very same God.

Now there is some mental gymnastics there, and you're continuing with the red herring.  You're replacing "clear and obvious purpose" with "purpose", the two very much NOT being the same.  You are defining "purpose" as being "God's reason for doing it".  That is clearly not the way I was using the word.  I'm not talking about God's reasoning here.  I'm talking about the miracles of the Bible not being just random weird shit happening.

Second, what types of miracles do you believe happen today?

 Whatever needs to happen for an indivisual to be assured. In short it depends on the heart or person God is directly working with.

Well that was a non-answer.

Are they anything like the big things of the past or are they now more subtle, more "undisprovable", if you will?

 what is a big thing? Can you name one thing in science that is "undisproovable?" so than why the double standard?

No, I can't.  And neither can you.  If it can't be tested, or "disproved", then it's not scientific.  So there is no double standard.  There is just the false equivalency you are trying to weave between science and mysticism.

Again, why did God change? 

Nothing has.. Look at the plagues.. For everything God had moses do on a large scale Pharaoh's wizards was able to conjurors on a smaller one.. all except the Passover of the 10th plague.
For those who do not want to believe God always leaves an out for their minds.[/qoute]
You have taken answering without answering to an art form.  The plagues were a "big thing".  An entire nation was inexplicably vexed.  An ingrown toenail being healed, not a big thing.  Cancer, something which you can't see and we don't fully understand, going away during treatment even though the doctors don't "think" it will, not a big thing.  Obviously the doctors don't "know" it won't go away or they wouldn't be doing the damned treatment.

Are there any specific miracles in modern times that you believe?

Just the ones I've been involved with.

Thank you for those...um...specifics?

  Are those miracles consistent with stories of miracles in the Bible? 

Yes

For instance, every single miracle in the Bible had a clear purpose.  There was a clear reason behind every single one.

Indeed.

 

A statue crying, not so much.  So if miracles are not just weird things that happen which can't be explained empirically, again, why did God change?

Again, beggs the question, who said God did?

Stop, dude.  You don't know shit about logical fallacies.  If you did you wouldn't be taking a simple, generic example of one possible modern miracle as an absolute claim that God made a specific statue cry somewhere.  It was an EXAMPLE of something I have heard claimed as a possible miracle, not a CLAIM on my part and, thus, NOT a logical fallacy.

I'm sure you probably read all that and are now thinking, "It's a trap!", "What an argumentative dick!" or both.

I see someone who simple has not experienced what others have.

Now who is the one drawing conclusions?  See my soul from there, do you?  My entire life?  Besides, I really haven't a clue what you're saying here.

  I am honestly curious.  Of course if you say anything which I disagree with or which doesn't make sense to me I'm going to respond, but that's not my purpose here.  The last Catholic I talked to was...shall we say, "unreasonable". 

Good news everyone! I'm not Catholic!!!

I gathered, and really don't care.

---

Dismissing my beliefs as blind faith is a bit insulting considering you don't hardly know anything about me or how much I've thought things through.

Yes, I do trust the church's judgements on approved miracles, but that goes along with the fact that I've chosen to stay catholic in the first place. So of course I trust them as a reliable source when it comes to miracles.

Anyhow, sorry I haven't been of more help to you. If youre curious about our beliefs, I would recommend joining a forum called catholic answers forum. It's pretty active and there are plenty of ppl there way more qualified to help you than myself.

I did not "dismiss your beliefs", or not intentionally so, anyway.  Obviously I don't hold them.  And to be fair it was you who said that you just accepted what the church told you, "the church's judgement on miracles", as you put it here.  Is that not "blind faith"?  Am I misusing the term?

You have answered the questions I asked, and for that I thank you.  You just aren't "right" for the conversation I was hoping to have.

I have no interest in pushing myself onto Catholics in their home.  If they are interested in talking to me, they'll come here.  I personally have no reason to seek out people who believe essentially the opposite of what I believe and start a conversation with them which says essentially, "You are wrong".  That would be rude of me.  And, really, I'm not all that curious about Catholic beliefs anyway.  It's more that I wanted to understand the mentality of a particular type of Catholic.  The beliefs, themselves, I find to be silly, obviously.

[Catholic_Lady]

Alright then.

[Pat Mustard]

Not put to me but .. hahahahahah .. as if that would stop me.

I think it is like any other whopper.  What was ordinary enough at the time just becomes more grand with every telling.  By the time the feeding of the multitude gets committed to paper what might have started as five people noticing how content they'd been with so little food while passing an interesting afternoon with a charismatic guy becomes a miracle of magical proportions.  These should be phased out or relegated to children's literature in the same vein as Santa.

I could not agree more.  There is archeological evidence that the Biblical flood was actually a local, albeit catastrophic event.  I'm sure to the people at the time it was the "whole world".  But obviously none of them were forewarned, nor did they build a big-ass boat and load it up with animals, nor were all who told the story over the years sprung from the same family.  At least, not until you go back far enough to trace our original evolutionary ancestor.  Large evolutionary change does, after all, start with a single offspring, not an entire populous just poofing into existence.

Mesopotamia flooded on a regular basis, what with the Tigris and the Euphrates being so close together and fed by large volumes of snow melt in the spring and early summer. No wonder the jews stole the Noah mythology for their holy book when they started writing it during the Babylonian captivity.

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A big one that happened not too long ago was the miracle of the sun in fatima. I think most Church approved miracles consist of apparitions and spontaneous healing of serious illnesses/disorders.  

Oh yes, let's pick out the "miracle" that most of the thousands who were there on the day didn't witness, the miracle that those who "witnessed" it couldn't agree on what the sun was doing, the miracle that can be replicated if your willing to risk irreprable retina damage by staring at the sun, the miracle that was started by a little girl who had a penchant for lying and manipulating those around her for her personal gain, the miracle whose message was only written down after the events it was supposed to warn about.

Catholic Lady, you're doing a bang up job of disproving catholicism by posting this stuff, you know that?

[Cyberman]

There was no fucking "miracle of the sun". The whole damn thing is fucking babyish superstitious bullshit for fuck's sake.

Sorry but this is what pisses me off about this shit.

[Catholic_Lady]

There was no fucking "miracle of the sun". The whole damn thing is fucking babyish superstitious bullshit for fuck's sake.

Sorry but this is what pisses me off about this shit.

I really don't understand the notion of being angry about someone else believing in any particular miracle. No one is forcing you to believe in it too.