My (probably unpopular) opinion on arab refugees

[Joods]

It's important because if you suddenly find that you have to leave your own country, because of war, how would you feel if no other country wanted you or your family because you were refugees? How would you feel if people judged you before they ever got to know you?

I would not expect anyone to help me. As I said some posts ago, I wouldnt  feel special compared to the other refugees. If someone helps me, great. If some dont, I wouldnt blame them because I wouldnt either.

It's not that you would need to feel special. It's the simple fact of considering the safety of you and your family. Honestly, taking such a blase' attitude towards my questions disturbs me because the way I'm understanding you, you'd rather let you and your family die from war or terrorism before getting them to safety. If I'm wrong about my interpretation, please correct me and tell me what you'd actually do in the situation I posed.

[Autumnlicious]

Some people wonder how this thread got dark.

I would like the opportunity to remind them that this thread started out on a "I know I should do $X, but Imma do $Y instead".

It started on a premise of bad behavior and will end that way. It doesn't matter the cause of the Syrian conflict or the responsibility the world has in it - all that matters to the (powerless and resentful of it) OP is that it stay away. That the chickens do not come home to roost, so to speak.

An excellent example of "Have your cake and eat it too".

Dr. Seuss really knew how to characterize that mode of thinking. Perhaps this can shock the conscience:



It perfectly captures the "I don't have any responsibility to others in dire need" aspect of the OP. It's nothing more complex than that. It may be predicated upon a belief of "if no one cares for me, then no one should care for another", but at the end of the day it manifest the same way.

Indifference. To those in suffering, to those forced to abandon their homes. And anything to justify that indifference, like the unsupportable claim that the Syrian refugees are all able bodied males when a quarter of them are.

It's very cold and very human.

[Amarok]

Some people wonder how this thread got dark.

I would like the opportunity to remind them that this thread started out on a "I know I should do $X, but Imma do $Y instead".

It started on a premise of bad behavior and will end that way. It doesn't matter the cause of the Syrian conflict or the responsibility the world has in it - all that matters to the (powerless and resentful of it) OP is that it stay away. That the chickens do not come home to roost, so to speak.

An excellent example of "Have your cake and eat it too".

Dr. Seuss really knew how to characterize that mode of thinking. Perhaps this can shock the conscience:



It perfectly captures the "I don't have any responsibility to others in dire need" aspect of the OP. It's nothing more complex than that. It may be predicated upon a belief of "if no one cares for me, then no one should care for another", but at the end of the day it manifest the same way.

Indifference. To those in suffering, to those forced to abandon their homes. And anything to justify that indifference, like the unsupportable claim that the Syrian refugees are all able bodied males when a quarter of them are.

It's very cold and very human.

or the idea that we can use biology,history,or political apathy or the excuse were mentally I'll to justify mistreating people

[GUBU]

I was concerned about the wacky demographics of some of the refugee groups.  I'd be less concerned about women, children and elderly as opposed to males 20-40, which for some reason seemed over represented by a factor of 10X.

Tis the normal pattern with migrations. The Irish emigrants did the same thing in the 19th century.

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My problem with it is this: what about all the other Arab countries? Why aren't they all helping to take their "brothers" in? I'm particularly thinking of Saudi fucking Arabia on this one. Without getting into a geography/sunni/shia discussion, why aren't particular countries taking in the members of their preferred faith?

Some are, but many are not.

I saw a video a while back that had an Arab woman excoriating Saudi Arabia over this. She pointed out that if there were 10 Americans in trouble, the United States would send a carrier group, but the Saudis see hundreds of thousands in trouble and can't be moved to do anything.

And I also think it's idiotic for Germany to have let so many in wholesale. The problems are going to reverberate throughout that nation well until after every person now living is dead.

Because the al Sauds don't want anybody who's not full on deifier of Wahhab. They've enough trouble exterminating the non-Wahhabs in their own country to be inviting in more.

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Let's start here...what country are you from?

Why is it important? I am from Costa Rica.

So you're of immigrant stock. You should be mad at your own family for not staying in Castille y Leon then.

[Amarok]

To wall i'm not going to go over every point you made because there is no point really so i'll sum up

1. your long ass rant about moral this moral that is post modernist garbage and belongs just there

2.At no point did I call you names by your comments and your own admission of your condition (fyi I support neurodiversity because I am autistic  and no it's not looted together it's a spectrum

3. I called you inhuman not because you your condition but because of your attitude

4. your whole bullshit argument is one massive cluster duck of logical fallacies

[John V]

The world works because humans move from one place to another. If your country permanently closed it's borders, not only will your economy dwindle but your society would suffocate. 

Go tell that to a Native American...

[Aoi Magi]

The world works because humans move from one place to another. If your country permanently closed it's borders, not only will your economy dwindle but your society would suffocate. 

Go tell that to a Native American...

Those who fought against the change have suffered and perished, those who managed to accept and adapt to the change have survived and are part of the modern society. Bad things did happen in the past, but we do not need to keep repeating those mistakes.

[Cyberman]

Does what Syria and Russia are doing to those people seem out of character with the history of humanity?  

It's kind of silly.  America is here because our ancestors killed a lot of people.  A LOT of people.  And once they got everything they wanted, and were on top of the world, they said "Alright!  Time Out!  Killing's bad.  Everybody has to be nice now!"  

Indians:  Now that you guys admit conquering is bad, can we have our land back.
US: Sorry buddy, that was before we called timeout on conquering.  
US: *TIME IN!* invades Iraq *TIME OUT*
Syria: Doh! You guys are very quick with your times ins and outs!

again appeal to  historic precedent won't help you here

Especially terrible precedent.

[Mister Agenda]

These refugees have strong religious beliefs, and if you let them in, their religion will start to spread. They will start building churches and mosques. And this, in the long run, will hurt society, the world, a lot more than letting some people die. Yes, even children. (Example of this: Londonistan, eh, I mena, London)

What, like these people?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/...84146.html

Or this man?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2cjYaXC1sg

I think I'm going to start doing this more often, showing people what exactly these "strong religious beliefs" are and what their "culture" is like.

I'm not doing this to deny that there's real Wahhabism and a push for Sharia even in Europe, there is. But we seriously need to stop indirectly giving power to Islamists by erasing normal people, to whom Islam is just one part of their multi-faceted identities. Like I said yesterday, you are not going to beat this far-right Islamist movement by shaming this apparently homogeneous "Muslim community". Change comes with normalising stories like the ones I posted, instead of giving so much attention and platforming to reactionary religious fascism masquerading as "authentic culture".

I observed something similar: the local mosque, run by an Imam from Egypt, was much more conservative than what the Somali Bantu refugees were used to. When they came here, the women and teenage girls wore colorful scarves, not hijab. After attending the mosque in Columbia SC, the girls were indoctrinated into wearing hijab and drab clothes. Their parents protested and the compromise was that they could still wear colorful clothes, but would also wear hijab. Since moving away (mostly to New York state) some of them have gone back to scarves.

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/image...J07b7gaQM_

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My problem with it is this: what about all the other Arab countries? Why aren't they all helping to take their "brothers" in? I'm particularly thinking of Saudi fucking Arabia on this one. Without getting into a geography/sunni/shia discussion, why aren't particular countries taking in the members of their preferred faith?

Some are, but many are not.

I saw a video a while back that had an Arab woman excoriating Saudi Arabia over this. She pointed out that if there were 10 Americans in trouble, the United States would send a carrier group, but the Saudis see hundreds of thousands in trouble and can't be moved to do anything.

And I also think it's idiotic for Germany to have let so many in wholesale. The problems are going to reverberate throughout that nation well until after every person now living is dead.

I for one, would hate to see Syrian refugees wind up in Saudi Arabia, one of the most repressive and religiously conservative regimes in the world. The Syrians were born and raised in a modern secular state, one run by an autocrat, but it had freedom of religion and state-funded college. Most adult Syrians have degrees and know how to use a computer. They are highly desirable as immigrants and them winding up in Saudi Arabia would be a loss for all concerned, except the Saudis.

I think it's important to make a distinction between economic migrants and registered refugees. Refugees are vetted, it's everyone else who crosses borders that isn't, including most Americans when they travel abroad.

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We must not lie to ourselves even if it makes us feel better. There are always unfortunate people around the world who suffer because of the decisions of other people. Not much to do about it. What we can do is try to be a decent human being, and thats it.

All of you who are playing the white knights, dont be hypocrites.

How many people around you need help, and you do nothing about it? Not even feel pity. Dont play the good guys when you dont move a finger to help those in need.

Are you familiar with the idea of projection in psychology? It's a defense mechanism where a person imagines other people possess in equal or greater measure a quality of the person doing the projection. Not everyone is like you, as convenient a salve as it would be to your conscience if they were.

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I'm saying this is how things are. That's just the dice evolution rolled.  It's not good or bad.  It just is.  Our evolutionary situation has put us in a nice safe comfortable bubble.  But do you see that you are viewing this from a very specific perspective that only applies to people in a very specific place and time.

And that the twofold irony, that your specific place and time were created by 1) the thing you are condemning (sorry indians), 2) a system that allows your place and time to be preserved through the actions you are condemning without you having to feel responsible for it (I held up a sign against it).

Evolution is not a proper consideration when determining what the right thing to do is BECAUSE it isn't good or bad. And history is not an excuse for repeating mistakes. Irony is also not an excuse to not do the right thing.

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If Schopenhauer was alive, and he had access to internet and this forum, you would call it a depressed, sad, lonely man.

I dont consider myself to be a bad person, nor do I think I have a grim vision of the world. I just dont like thinking everything is peace and love.

Because there's absolutely no space between 'the world is a cold, cold place where you can't expect any mercy' and 'everything is peaceful, loving, and delightful', eh?

[Regina]

Their parents protested and the compromise was that they could still wear colorful clothes, but would also wear hijab. Since moving away (mostly to New York state) some of them have gone back to scarves.

Bold mine, I think this is an interesting point. It's actually something I've heard quite a few times before when a Muslim woman has started dressing more conservatively. I think it's an important thing to highlight, because the stereotype usually goes something like "did your Dad make you wear that?". While that is sometimes the case, there are also men who literally hate seeing their female family members pressured into dressing so conservatively by the mosque.

I think the problem in the West though is that Western media only allows this one kind of "authentic Islam" to come out, this image of an excessively conservative pious father and a veiled mother and daughter, and that gets typecast as being "authentic" Middle Eastern culture. Both the Right wing and the regressive Left promote this for different reasons, for scapegoating and for "we have to respect their culture" respectively.

The problem is, that's the exact same narrative the Islamists use to tell those Somali girls that they are not "true" Muslims because they're dressed too modern. So on both sides, even in the West, Muslims and Muslim-perceived people have no space to explore, and selectively choose the degree to which they want to practice (or not practice at all).