Theists: How can predetermined fate and free will coexist?

[brewer]

I'm sorry. I fail to see how Him having already seen what I choose to do = Him controlling what I do.

If god has already seen it happen, prior to it happening, how can you do anything different when that time comes? 

The play has been written prior to your arrival, you can only act the part given to you.

[purplepurpose]

I think CL sees the future as being somehow fluid.

But it doesn't matter how many times the possible future changes, there's only one thing that can ultimately happen. And if God knows what that is, then no one can choose for anything different to happen.

If they can, then he didn't know it.

robvalue, you wish too much. Hindu philosophers have a term like "incomprehensible aspects of God". Leave it at that, don't fuel this philosophical "porn". Even from theists points of view, this technical question is garbage, because we can only speculate about how Magical Being functions. The only question for theists, which exists is "Should I serve God or not?".

[RozKek]

I'm sorry. I fail to see how Him having already seen what I choose to do = Him controlling what I do.

If god has already seen it happen, prior to it happening, how can you do anything different when that time comes? 

The play has been written prior to your arrival, you can only act the part given to you.

This^ If God sees that you're going eat eggs for breakfast, then you will go and eat eggs for breakfast, if you don't then God wasn't apparently powerful enough to see that you were going to change your mind and eat waffles instead. What makes you think God wouldn't take into account your change of mind? This also applies to my question, the important bit here is that if God sees that you're going to hell then you have no way at all to not go to hell. If you do end up in heaven when he saw you go to hell, does that mean God was wrong? Was he a lier? Did you trick him? Does he have flaws?

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@CL It'd still appreciate it if you'd answer my question, maybe we can get somewhere with this discussion.

[Catholic_Lady]

I'm sorry. I fail to see how Him having already seen what I choose to do = Him controlling what I do.

If god has already seen it happen, prior to it happening, how can you do anything different when that time comes? 

The play has been written prior to your arrival, you can only act the part given to you.

I think you're thinking of it in terms of Him traveling back and forth in time and whatever He sees when He "travels" to the future is how things are set in stone to be regardless of what might change. Such is not the case. He knows what happens because He exists in a dimension outside of time, meaning He is already seeing the entire span of time and all the actions we choose to take all at once.

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No, that is not what I am saying.

I think I know exactly what you mean. You mean to say God exist as an outside, independent viewer that sees everything before and ahead of time.

Well consider this scenario:

* God tells me I'll have steak for breakfast.

* I have eggs for breakfast.

There are three explanations:

1) God already knew I will have eggs. However in this case it would imply God lied to me, which isn't possible since he is exempt from sin.

2) God didn't know what would happen. This would imply God is not aware of everything, which again contradicts the property of God.

3) God knew what would happen but we exercised our free will and did what we wanted regardless, which deny the notion of a predetermined fate and takes us back to scenario 2.

4. God knew that He would come and tell you that you were going to have steak and that you would choose to have eggs instead.

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Even this isn't coherent, it's the exact same situation except that god is assumed to be in another dimension which in no way adds value to the argument. I will simplify this.

Please do not go off track with your answer:
God is all powerful, he can see the future. He sees that you're going to go to hell. Can you go to heaven?

I'm not sure what it is about this that is so hard to understand. Not sure what else to say without repeating myself.

Can you answer the question I asked earlier?

God is all powerful, he can see the future. He sees that you're going to go to hell. Can you go to heaven?

Of course I can go to Heaven. But if He saw that I went to Hell, that means I went to Hell.

[RozKek]

If god has already seen it happen, prior to it happening, how can you do anything different when that time comes? 

The play has been written prior to your arrival, you can only act the part given to you.

I think you're thinking of it in terms of Him traveling back and forth in time and whatever He sees when He "travels" to the future is how things are set in stone to be regardless of what might change. Such is not the case. He knows what happens because He exists in a dimension outside of time, meaning He is already seeing the entire span of time and all the actions we choose to take all at once.

And if he sees that all your actions will lead to you going to heaven in 20 years, can you still end up in hell?

Edit: -CL replied, answering in another post-

[Homeless Nutter]

I'm sorry. I fail to see how Him having already seen what I choose to do = Him controlling what I do.

That's because you can't comprehend what omniscience is. In your mind god is just an imperfect being - like a human, who's smart enough to build a robot, that plays chess, but whose brain lacks the computing power to predict which of the countless possible moves the machine's algorithm will chose. 

Your god is a tinkerer. A mad scientist. A bumbling fool, who - while infinitely more powerful and informed than you - still has to leave some things to chance, when running his "experiments." You think your god has the need to "test" his creation, because you think of him as a human. But humans have to test things, in order to find out the outcomes - because we're not omniscient. God is not supposed to have the need for tests.

God is supposed to be perfect and all-knowing. Meaning, that if he creates a "machine" - and by that I mean either a mechanical, a biological, or even a "spiritual" system, which operates on a set of principles chosen by the creator - he understands it precisely, so there is no question in his mind, as to what the machine will do at any given moment, regardless of the complexity. A "machine" built by god makes exactly the "choices" he designed. He can't blame his creation for any shortcomings and can't use ignorance of the outcome as an excuse. Because he's supposed to have known what he was doing, when creating the world and humans.

Of course - I don't expect you to comprehend this. Years of indoctrination and empty promises made by people you regard as authority will probably not let you see beyond the naive self-serving fantasy.

[RozKek]

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Can you answer the question I asked earlier?

God is all powerful, he can see the future. He sees that you're going to go to hell. Can you go to heaven?

Of course I can go to Heaven. But if He saw that I went to Hell, that means I went to Hell.

Exactly, let's say that is the case, in reality. Let's say God sees that I am going to hell, then I am going to hell as you said, and if you agree with that you do not agree with that I can go to heaven because he saw me go to hell. Then it does mean that I am doomed and determined to go to hell, because everything I will do no matter will result in me going to hell, because that is what god saw. Now if he saw me go to hell, then I cannot go to heaven because that means God was wrong, which contradicts God's nature.

The problem with your way around this is that you say that I can change my mind and then go to heaven, whilst God saw me go to hell, which means that whether you're aware of it not, you're implying that God could not see my change of mind for some reason, and that is contradictory. You are then saying that when God looked into the future and saw me go to hell, for some reason he didn't see me change my mind that would lead me going to heaven? If he can see the future then he will literally see or know every single thing you do including all your changes in mind, regrets etc that lead to the final result; hell or heaven.

[Catholic_Lady]

Think of it this way. When we look at a cube, we are seeing 3 dimensions all at one glance - its height, width, and depth. Likewise God can see past present and future in this same sort of way. From the outside looking in, all in one glance.

[ErGingerbreadMandude]

4. God knew that He would come and tell you that you were going to have steak and that you would choose to have eggs instead.

Sure, I will agree with you that God knew what would happen but at the same time it would mean that God lied to me and God can't commit sin, right?

[Catholic_Lady]

4. God knew that He would come and tell you that you were going to have steak and that you would choose to have eggs instead.

Sure, I will agree with you that God knew what would happen but at the same time it would mean that God lied to me and God can't commit sin, right?

Um, sure lol.