Theists: How can predetermined fate and free will coexist?

[brewer]

Yeah...

Contradictory views have to be held so that God can be all powerful and all knowning when it's convenient, and hold his hands up and say, "Your bad" when it's something he doesn't like. Even though he designed the person and all of their actions before they were even born, he's going to turn around and blame the puppet for any "bad stuff" he does.

And that's the wonder of being able to exist with cognitive dissonance.

Or maybe it's Scarlet O'Hara synd:  "I can't think about that right now. If I do, I'll go crazy. I'll think about that tomorrow."

[robvalue]

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Yeah...

Contradictory views have to be held so that God can be all powerful and all knowning when it's convenient, and hold his hands up and say, "Your bad" when it's something he doesn't like. Even though he designed the person and all of their actions before they were even born, he's going to turn around and blame the puppet for any "bad stuff" he does.

And that's the wonder of being able to exist with cognitive dissonance.

Or maybe it's Scarlet O'Hara synd:  "I can't think about that right now. If I do, I'll go crazy. I'll think about that tomorrow."

I don't know how they do it. My mind would explode. I have a natural tendency to try and resolve all contradictions as far as possible.

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[SteveII]

When I was a Christian, this is how I had it worked out:

The future is not set in stone, and therefore even God cannot predict it in the way people traditionally think.  But God can predict events in the future because he can influence how things will unfold.  In other words, he cannot predict which tie I'll wear to work tomorrow but he can say that there will be an earthquake in a specific location because he has the power to cause it to happen.  So he can predict the future, yet he does not know the future.

You can easily interpret the Bible to support this idea-- God predicts events and inspires confidence in his promises by making those events happen.  We do this all the time-- we make plans and promise to carry them out.  If you tell your child that you will pick them up from school at the end of the school day and you show up, you predicted the future!  The confidence that God inspires is absolute, because while events might prevent you from following your plans there is nothing that can thwart God (well, aside from chariots of iron, but whatever).

Presto-- we have free will, and God can predict the future.  There may be some overlap there, in that God's actions might affect our choices.  But it's far more compatible than the idea that we have freedom to make choices but our choices are locked in, allowing God to see what happens before it happens.  Where this went off the rails for me was in the case of Judas, whose free will would have to have been tampered with in order to turn him into a traitor for no other reason than to fulfill a prophecy.  Was Judas a good man who was warped by God into becoming evil?  Was he an evil man who was selected to represent Jesus for a while and preach the good news of the kingdom of God?  Was he created and guided for the specific purpose of betraying Jesus?  Judas doesn't fit into any of the models for free will without making God seem wicked.

According to Molinism, there are two ways in which God can make things happen: 1) Strong actualization, God brings about some effect directly by his action (direct cause-effect). 2) Weak actualization, where God places someone in a set of circumstances with the knowledge (middle knowledge from the Wiki article a couple of posts ago) that the person would freely decide to bring about the desired effect. 

If God weakly actualizing the circumstances to have Judas freely betray Jesus, that is not the same as God causing someone to do evil. While the effect was willed by God, the mechanism (Judas) still had free will. If God knew Judas was not greedy and selfish enough, then someone else would have been put in those circumstances.

[ApeNotKillApe]

A distinction without a difference.

[Tonus]

If God weakly actualizing the circumstances to have Judas freely betray Jesus, that is not the same as God causing someone to do evil. While the effect was willed by God, the mechanism (Judas) still had free will. If God knew Judas was not greedy and selfish enough, then someone else would have been put in those circumstances.

That was just one of the possibilities that I was thinking through. I am assuming that it was of critical importance that Judas fulfill his role once it was prophesied. There is another option in the end-- that Judas is in heaven, having carried out his role in assuring that Jesus did not make a mistaken prediction. That's not the impression we get because Judas is used by Satan and he is allowed to suffer from a guilty conscience that drives him to suicide. There is no indication that he is redeemed.

There are other issues with the concept of a predetermined fate in this situation. If God foresaw that Judas would betray Jesus, then this means that God foresaw himself selecting Judas for the role. Is God also beholden to fate and unable to change the future? If not, then didn't his action in choosing Judas seal that man's fate as the person who betrayed God himself? That's a heavy burden to place on a man unnecessarily, since his betrayal wasn't needed-- Jesus himself mentioned that the Pharisees had plenty of opportunities to apprehend him, as he was not hiding.

[deleteduser12345]

brain lag

edit: I thought I replied to myself

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Exactly, let's say that is the case, in reality. Let's say God sees that I am going to hell, then I am going to hell as you said, and if you agree with that you do not agree with that I can go to heaven because he saw me go to hell. Then it does mean that I am doomed and determined to go to hell, because everything I will do no matter will result in me going to hell, because that is what god saw. Now if he saw me go to hell, then I cannot go to heaven because that means God was wrong, which contradicts God's nature.

The problem with your way around this is that you say that I can change my mind and then go to heaven, whilst God saw me go to hell, which means that whether you're aware of it not, you're implying that God could not see my change of mind for some reason, and that is contradictory. You are then saying that when God looked into the future and saw me go to hell, for some reason he didn't see me change my mind that would lead me going to heaven? If he can see the future then he will literally see or know every single thing you do including all your changes in mind, regrets etc that lead to the final result; hell or heaven.

Again, it's not that you "cannot" go to Heaven. It's that he already saw what you already did. 

He isn't "looking into the future." That would suggest that He's in the present, looking at the future, which is not the case. He is not in the past, present, or future. He exists outside of time altogether. So no, he isn't necessarily looking into the future as a fortune teller would. He's seeing everything happen all at once. He's already seeing what actions you will be taking or not taking that will get you to wherever you go. He's already seeing what your mind has done, is doing, and will do. If you intend on doing something, but then change your mind and do something else, He already knew you would do that because he's already seen you do it.

-my bold-

That is pretty much what we've been saying, and that does not work with your religion. And it doesn't matter where he is or how many dimensions he is, if he sees me go to hell then I literally since I was born, even far before that have had no choice but to go to hell, and that does not work with your religion.

[SteveII]

If God weakly actualizing the circumstances to have Judas freely betray Jesus, that is not the same as God causing someone to do evil. While the effect was willed by God, the mechanism (Judas) still had free will. If God knew Judas was not greedy and selfish enough, then someone else would have been put in those circumstances.

That was just one of the possibilities that I was thinking through.  I am assuming that it was of critical importance that Judas fulfill his role once it was prophesied.  There is another option in the end-- that Judas is in heaven, having carried out his role in assuring that Jesus did not make a mistaken prediction.  That's not the impression we get because Judas is used by Satan and he is allowed to suffer from a guilty conscience that drives him to suicide.  There is no indication that he is redeemed.

There are other issues with the concept of a predetermined fate in this situation.  If God foresaw that Judas would betray Jesus, then this means that God foresaw himself selecting Judas for the role.  Is God also beholden to fate and unable to change the future?  If not, then didn't his action in choosing Judas seal that man's fate as the person who betrayed God himself?  That's a heavy burden to place on a man unnecessarily, since his betrayal wasn't needed-- Jesus himself mentioned that the Pharisees had plenty of opportunities to apprehend him, as he was not hiding.

Molinist doctrine outlines a sequence of God's knowledge: 

1. God's natural knowledge of necessary truths.
2. God's middle knowledge, (including counterfactuals).
3. God's free knowledge (the actual ontology of the world).

In Judas' case, #2 come into play as God knew, given that Jesus was born in the timeframe he was, walked through town x on y date and met Judas and asked him to be a disciple, then after 3 years and z number of events Judas experienced, he would freely betray him. Then we get to #3 where God did decide the time for Jesus to be born, did decide were to be walking though on y date and did decide to speak to Judas...

So, God's actions did in a way (weakly actualizing) 'seal that man's fate as the person to betray God'. That in no way took away Judas' ability to choose otherwise. Jesus' message obviously did not resonate with him and the greed in his heart was obviously there. He went to hell not for his weakly-actualized-by-God actions, but for the same reason anyone else will--rejecting God in his heart. 

[brewer]

Just another rationalization made up to fit a fantasy delusion. If it works for you, go for it!

[Asmodee]

Free will is a myth any way you slice it.

From the religious perspective, God is all-knowing.  He knew how things would turn out before he decided to set them in motion.  He knew man would eat from the tree if he just left them alone with Satan.  So he left them alone with Satan.  He knew who would be saved and who would be damned before creation.  He knew how everything would turn out before he even set it in motion.  And in the few times when they wouldn't turn out the way he wanted, he changed things.  He "hardened Pharaoh's heart" when he REALLY wanted to kill a bunch of people, to give an example.

From the natural perspective, the universe operates on known laws and mechanisms.  We know that everything that happens in the brain is a series of chemical reactions.  We also know that how chemicals react follows very specific rules.  From the moment the universe sprung forth from the singularity everything in it was governed by the laws of physics, the paths of each wave and particle and their every interaction set into motion unstoppable and unchangeable without supernatural interference.  Given the nature of the universe and everything in it it was impossible for that first particle not to form in the exact location it did, just as it was impossible for anything after it to be different.  Given an identical singularity in an identical state expanding in an identical way we would have an identical universe, down to the placement of the last particle.

So it wasn't my fault.  It was literally impossible for me NOT to kill those hookers.  The universe made me do it.  I had no choice because free will is a myth.

[Tonus]

So, God's actions did in a way (weakly actualizing) 'seal that man's fate as the person to betray God'. That in no way took away Judas' ability to choose otherwise. Jesus' message obviously did not resonate with him and the greed in his heart was obviously there. He went to hell not for his weakly-actualized-by-God actions, but for the same reason anyone else will--rejecting God in his heart.

But God's action put Judas in the position of taking the action that betrayed Jesus. Absent that, what would Judas' life have been like? Would he still have earned a ticket to hell? Was he always going to be wicked regardless of God's actions and it was simply a matter of using someone who was screwed anyway? Surely we've heard or read of people who made changes in their lives and became completely different because of some experience. Was Judas immune to this or did God realize that --absent any divine interference-- he was already hell-bound? This speaks to a God who had a chance to save Judas and instead used him as a convenient prop.

The notion that my life might be laid out along a path that I cannot change but that I cannot see means that my life would still have the appearance of being under my control. In which case, there's nothing to worry about. But it's troubling to think that my path was laid out long before I was born and I have no way of avoiding the decisions that would lead me to eternal joy or eternal horror. That doesn't keep you up at night? The possibility that your fate is to turn on God someday and be condemned to eternal hell without any recourse because it's how your life's thread was directed? Or do you feel that you will be granted heaven because... ?