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Truth in a story which is entirely dependent upon subjective interpretation
#11
RE: Truth in a story which is entirely dependent upon subjective interpretation
(1st January 2017, 13:39)Astonished Wrote:
(1st January 2017, 13:35)Minimalist Wrote: Xtians are hardly unique.

Sunni and Shi'a muslims joyously blow themselves up because of something that happened 1300 years ago.  I mean, give it up already.

You mean because of something someone claimed happened 1300 years ago. Tongue

No, their beef is mainly about earthly succession -- who was going to run the show?

Allah was oddly silent on the whole affair.
Those who see only what they wish to see are doomed to rot in the stink of their own perceptions. -- Frank Herbert
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#12
RE: Truth in a story which is entirely dependent upon subjective interpretation
It would still be like someone claiming to be the Yorkist claimant to the British throne and wanting to kill all the Lancastrians.

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#13
RE: Truth in a story which is entirely dependent upon subjective interpretation
(1st January 2017, 12:43)Astonished Wrote: I seriously don't get this. To make the claim that there is any truth, let alone the 'only', and absolute, undisputed truth, and yet having thousands of denominations disagreeing on every possible opinion (and justifiably so since it contradicts itself so much), how do people answer this? I've not seen a response on youtube and I don't know if a primarily atheist forum is a good place to get an answer, but I'd sure like to know. I mean, that's just the tip of the iceberg really. What passages are metaphorical and which literal? And how would one tell the difference? It seems like an impossible mess. Is this just another situation where it's ignored or some really bottom-of-the-barrel-scraping answer is all we get?

These are my thoughts on the subject. First of all, christians don't disagree on everything in the bible, but if you take any manuscript written thousands of years ago in Hebrew or Greek, and then translate into a modern day language, you're going to have much disagreement on the meaning of parts of the writings. I don't think that the bible was written to be a manual. It was written with the purpose of leading people to Christ. All christians agree that Jesus Christ is the savior and the only way to God. There is nothing in the bible that says that all followers of Christ must have the exact same opinion of every passage in the bible. Maybe we'll all know the meaning when we get to the next life. Many older christians know more about the bible than newer ones, but they are all equal followers of Jesus. Why would God choose this way? Maybe he wants us to search, discuss and debate, which makes it much less boring.
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#14
RE: Truth in a story which is entirely dependent upon subjective interpretation
Quote:Why would God choose this way?

Because the primitive humans who invented your silly god chose that way.

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#15
RE: Truth in a story which is entirely dependent upon subjective interpretation
OP: Truth is subjective. Therefore my truth is truer than your truth which means that your truth is less true and more false. So, if your more false, IT'S HELL FOR YOU BOY!
God(s) and religions are man made and the bane of humanity. 

Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most. Ozzy or Twain/take your pick
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#16
RE: Truth in a story which is entirely dependent upon subjective interpretation
(3rd January 2017, 20:56)Lek Wrote:
(1st January 2017, 12:43)Astonished Wrote: I seriously don't get this. To make the claim that there is any truth, let alone the 'only', and absolute, undisputed truth, and yet having thousands of denominations disagreeing on every possible opinion (and justifiably so since it contradicts itself so much), how do people answer this? I've not seen a response on youtube and I don't know if a primarily atheist forum is a good place to get an answer, but I'd sure like to know. I mean, that's just the tip of the iceberg really. What passages are metaphorical and which literal? And how would one tell the difference? It seems like an impossible mess. Is this just another situation where it's ignored or some really bottom-of-the-barrel-scraping answer is all we get?

These are my thoughts on the subject.  First of all, christians don't disagree on everything in the bible, but if you take any manuscript written thousands of years ago in Hebrew or Greek, and then translate into a modern day language, you're going to have much disagreement on the meaning of parts of the writings.  I don't think that the bible was written to be a manual. It was written with the purpose of leading people to Christ.  All christians agree that Jesus Christ is the savior and the only way to God.  There is nothing in the bible that says that all followers of Christ must have the exact same opinion of every passage in the bible.  Maybe we'll all know the meaning when we get to the next life.  Many older christians know more about the bible than newer ones, but they are all equal followers of Jesus.  Why would God choose this way?  Maybe he wants us to search, discuss and debate, which makes it much less boring.


But I'm sure you will be able to understand the burden that puts on us skeptics.

You even stated one of the many problems with your proposition.

Quote:but if you take any manuscript written thousands of years ago in Hebrew or Greek, and then translate into a modern day language, you're going to have much disagreement on the meaning of parts of the writings.

Why would an omniscient and omnipotent god not take better precautions in order to assure his message is not corrupted by us fallible humans?


The Christian proposition is that, the omniscient and omnipotent creator of the universe has this message, that unless we believe it, we are destined for eternal torture, or annihilation, or whatever you believe happens to us nonbelievers (another major discrepancy between different sects) after we die.

And how does he choose to communicate the 'most important message', ever?

He inspires a very few of his creation, in a very small geographical location, on one planet out of 10 to the 24 planets in the observable universe, to write it down on little pieces of parchment. No, wait. He doesn't even do that. He has them wait decades in the case of the NT, and centuries in the case of the OT, before he has them write it down.

And when they finally do, they write it ancient languages that this omni god would know are sure to: die out, be full of cultural idioms, be susceptible to copy errors, contradictions, insertions, stories that seem borrowed from older religions, stories of magical incantations, mythological creatures, incorrect history, etc, etc.

All the while, allowing the vast majority of the rest of humanity of the time (about 300 million people), on every other continent, to not hear the message, and develop their own 'man made' religions. Religion seems to have an extremely powerful geographical element to it. Curious that Rolleyes

So, here I am, a modern human, with so much more knowledge of the universe than even the greatest minds of ancient Palestine, expected to take the message seriously, when all I am given to evaluate it, is these flawed texts and this flawed premise.

And here you come, an equally modern human, forced to come up with some post hoc rationalisation in an attempt to explain away all the problems with the texts.

What you see as "god's" method of wanting "us to search, discuss and debate, which makes it much less boring", we see as texts with major credibility problems.

You'd believe if you just opened your heart" is a terrible argument for religion. It's basically saying, "If you bias yourself enough, you can convince yourself that this is true." If religion were true, people wouldn't need faith to believe it -- it would be supported by good evidence.
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#17
RE: Truth in a story which is entirely dependent upon subjective interpretation
(3rd January 2017, 21:58)Simon Moon Wrote:
(3rd January 2017, 20:56)Lek Wrote: These are my thoughts on the subject.  First of all, christians don't disagree on everything in the bible, but if you take any manuscript written thousands of years ago in Hebrew or Greek, and then translate into a modern day language, you're going to have much disagreement on the meaning of parts of the writings.  I don't think that the bible was written to be a manual. It was written with the purpose of leading people to Christ.  All christians agree that Jesus Christ is the savior and the only way to God.  There is nothing in the bible that says that all followers of Christ must have the exact same opinion of every passage in the bible.  Maybe we'll all know the meaning when we get to the next life.  Many older christians know more about the bible than newer ones, but they are all equal followers of Jesus.  Why would God choose this way?  Maybe he wants us to search, discuss and debate, which makes it much less boring.


But I'm sure you will be able to understand the burden that puts on us skeptics.

You even stated one of the many problems with your proposition.

Quote:but if you take any manuscript written thousands of years ago in Hebrew or Greek, and then translate into a modern day language, you're going to have much disagreement on the meaning of parts of the writings.

Why would an omniscient and omnipotent god not take better precautions in order to assure his message is not corrupted by us fallible humans?


The Christian proposition is that, the omniscient and omnipotent creator of the universe has this message, that unless we believe it, we are destined for eternal torture, or annihilation, or whatever you believe happens to us nonbelievers (another major discrepancy between different sects) after we die.

And how does he choose to communicate the 'most important message', ever?

He inspires a very few of his creation, in a very small geographical location, on one planet out of 10 to the 24 planets in the observable universe, to write it down on little pieces of parchment. No, wait. He doesn't even do that. He has them wait decades in the case of the NT, and centuries in the case of the OT, before he has them write it down.

And when they finally do, they write it ancient languages that this omni god would know are sure to: die out, be full of cultural idioms, be susceptible to copy errors, contradictions, insertions, stories that seem borrowed from older religions, stories of magical incantations, mythological creatures, incorrect history, etc, etc.

All the while, allowing the vast majority of the rest of humanity of the time (about 300 million people), on every other continent, to not hear the message, and develop their own 'man made' religions. Religion seems to have an extremely powerful geographical element to it. Curious that Rolleyes

So, here I am, a modern human, with so much more knowledge of the universe than even the greatest minds of ancient Palestine, expected to take the message seriously, when all I am given to evaluate it, is these flawed texts and this flawed premise.

And here you come, an equally modern human, forced to come up with some post hoc rationalisation in an attempt to explain away all the problems with the texts.

What you see as "god's" method of wanting "us to search, discuss and debate, which makes it much less boring", we see as texts with major credibility problems.

Yeah. It's funny how, with all those drawbacks with the bible, that christianity has spread all over the world and is the largest religion in the world. Whatever the drawbacks with the bible, christianity has, and still is doing remarkably well, and is doing best in those "other" geographical regions. Also, the bible has drawn countless people to an interest in Christ, but faith doesn't come from reading the scriptures, but rather from God himself for those who seek him.
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#18
RE: Truth in a story which is entirely dependent upon subjective interpretation
(3rd January 2017, 22:19)Lek Wrote: Yeah.  It's funny how, with all those drawbacks with the bible, that christianity has spread all over the world and is the largest religion in the world.  Whatever the drawbacks with the bible, christianity has, and still is doing remarkably well, and is doing best in those "other" geographical regions.  Also, the bible has drawn countless people to an interest in Christ, but faith doesn't come from reading the scriptures, but rather from God himself for those who seek him.


Argument ad populum.

Well played sir, well played.

You'd believe if you just opened your heart" is a terrible argument for religion. It's basically saying, "If you bias yourself enough, you can convince yourself that this is true." If religion were true, people wouldn't need faith to believe it -- it would be supported by good evidence.
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#19
RE: Truth in a story which is entirely dependent upon subjective interpretation
(3rd January 2017, 22:19)Lek Wrote:
(3rd January 2017, 21:58)Simon Moon Wrote: But I'm sure you will be able to understand the burden that puts on us skeptics.

You even stated one of the many problems with your proposition.


Why would an omniscient and omnipotent god not take better precautions in order to assure his message is not corrupted by us fallible humans?


The Christian proposition is that, the omniscient and omnipotent creator of the universe has this message, that unless we believe it, we are destined for eternal torture, or annihilation, or whatever you believe happens to us nonbelievers (another major discrepancy between different sects) after we die.

And how does he choose to communicate the 'most important message', ever?

He inspires a very few of his creation, in a very small geographical location, on one planet out of 10 to the 24 planets in the observable universe, to write it down on little pieces of parchment. No, wait. He doesn't even do that. He has them wait decades in the case of the NT, and centuries in the case of the OT, before he has them write it down.

And when they finally do, they write it ancient languages that this omni god would know are sure to: die out, be full of cultural idioms, be susceptible to copy errors, contradictions, insertions, stories that seem borrowed from older religions, stories of magical incantations, mythological creatures, incorrect history, etc, etc.

All the while, allowing the vast majority of the rest of humanity of the time (about 300 million people), on every other continent, to not hear the message, and develop their own 'man made' religions. Religion seems to have an extremely powerful geographical element to it. Curious that Rolleyes

So, here I am, a modern human, with so much more knowledge of the universe than even the greatest minds of ancient Palestine, expected to take the message seriously, when all I am given to evaluate it, is these flawed texts and this flawed premise.

And here you come, an equally modern human, forced to come up with some post hoc rationalisation in an attempt to explain away all the problems with the texts.

What you see as "god's" method of wanting "us to search, discuss and debate, which makes it much less boring", we see as texts with major credibility problems.

Yeah.  It's funny how, with all those drawbacks with the bible, that christianity has spread all over the world and is the largest religion in the world.  Whatever the drawbacks with the bible, christianity has, and still is doing remarkably well, and is doing best in those "other" geographical regions.  Also, the bible has drawn countless people to an interest in Christ, but faith doesn't come from reading the scriptures, but rather from God himself for those who seek him.

Yeah, and the slaves and plantation owners were bestest buddies! Just like the conquistadors and the South American natives! Because they spread it through niceness and puppy dog belly rubs! And nobody needs to have their minds warped by indoctrination to believe any of those stories, anyone can be convinced of things without evidence, that's why anyone accused of a crime is automatically guilty unless they can prove they didn't do it! Duh!

Atomic face palm.

Please, for the love of the god that doesn't exist, tell me you can at least somewhat understand how a skeptic would assess religion's effect on your mental state in a negative way.
Religions were invented to impress and dupe illiterate, superstitious stone-age peasants. So in this modern, enlightened age of information, what's your excuse? Or are you saying with all your advantages, you were still tricked as easily as those early humans?

---

There is no better way to convey the least amount of information in the greatest amount of words than to try explaining your religious views.
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#20
RE: Truth in a story which is entirely dependent upon subjective interpretation
Quote:Yeah. It's funny how, with all those drawbacks with the bible, that christianity has spread all over the world and is the largest religion in the world.

Funny how you left out European colonialism.  Why is that?  Ashamed of the white man's burden, Lek?

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