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Who was "he" talking to?
RE: Who was "he" talking to?
(January 16, 2017 at 6:42 am)chimp3 Wrote:
(January 16, 2017 at 6:33 am)Godschild Wrote: I know of no one who has claimed to have actually known God and rejected Him. Isn't it obvious that this is true, look around on this forum, all those who claimed they were Christians and are now atheist say there is no God, so they couldn't have known Him in the true sense or they could only say they reject Him and will no longer follow Him.
I know Him and can't reject Him, that's why I will always be His child.

GC

So , you know of no person who was effectively brainwashed who escaped from that psychological trap?

Please read the whole post before replying.

GC
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
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RE: Who was "he" talking to?
(January 16, 2017 at 11:15 am)Tonus Wrote:
(January 16, 2017 at 6:33 am)Godschild Wrote:


Nearly everyone who ever believed in any god felt the same way. We've had Muslims here making similar claims about Allah. Unless they can demonstrate it, it is only a fact for them. For the person looking from the outside, all the claims are the same-- they cannot be demonstrated in spite of the confidence with which they are made.

I could say the same thing about evolution, no one can ever demonstrate one species becoming another because by the science of evolution it would take many thousands of years to do, seems a convenient answer doesn't it.
Two things here, first there's the fact that the God of creation is the only one who tells us through a book who He is and that He's unchanging, that is as far as I know, I do not know all the religions out there.
Second Christianity is personal and no work is required nor can work make you a Christian, God receives you just as you are, it is His cleansing of a person that is required. All other religions require work and some is extreme. These people believe they have to cleanse themselves for their god, how does that make sense, how could it be possible for a person to cleanse themselves for a supreme being. The only way I see that possible is for that god to have low standards essentially allowing the people to determine how the religion is conducted.

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Tonus Wrote:What do you mean when you say "open heart"?

It means that you will not shield your spirit from the Holy Spirit, as God said about pharaoh, "he has hardened his heart."

Quote:


Tonus Wrote:Satan knew God personally and directly, and rejected him. Adam and Eve knew God personally and directly, and rejected him. Judas knew God personally and directly, and rejected him. Around a third of the angels in heaven knew God personally and directly, and rejected him.

Yes you're correct and you have shown what I stated to be true, they rejected who He is, they did not say He doesn't exist. Satan confronts God about Job, a legion of angles asked Jesus not to destroy them and Judas hung himself after he realized that he had betrayed God. None of these, not one said, God does not exist, they saw and believed He exists.

Tonus Wrote:The Egyptian Pharaoh saw God's hand in action throughout his entire kingdom, and defied him anyway. How many people saw Jesus perform miracles and give rousing speeches... and rejected him?

Yes he did and believed he was a god, God proved to him who was the real God and he released the Israelites. He did not say God doesn't exist.
Many saw and rejected, just as you have done, the highest religious people in Israel rejected Him because it meant they would have to give up their status and control of the people and their lives, also the monies they were living high on the hog with, yes I know they did not eat pork. Jesus himself told them many will see the miracles and not believe.

Tonus Wrote:I am pretty sure that you have not gotten to know God as closely as those people did, yet you feel that you cannot reject him. Is it possible that you've made him out to be far more impressive than he really is?

First of all Adam and Eve disobeyed God, what they did was not a rejection.
Satan and the other angels didn't believe He was omnipotent and could destroy them, they were and are powerful beings. They found out differently as we can see when some of them encountered Jesus here on earth where they were banned and asked Him not to destroy them. So yes they knew him but not well enough to believe in His omni-person. I do. Pharaoh thought he was a more powerful god and rejected God's omnipotence, he learned the hard way. I believe in His omnipotence. Judas did not believe Jesus was the all knowing God and rejected Him as the omniscient and omnipotent God because He would not destroy the Romans. I do. Those who saw the miracles and rejected Him just refuse to believe. I believe in God as He has shown himself to be, so I want speak for those others and the depth of their belief, what I will say is that I believe in the total of the God they rejected.

Tonus Wrote:God cannot be very impressive if people with such close contact and experience with him rejected him. Some of them even knew that the price of their defiance was death! There are people throughout the Bible who preferred to die than to serve God. There is a significant disconnect here, IMO.

Yes they did as you are doing, defying even to damnation. They just like you haven't accepted Christ as the savior He is, they all thought they knew more than God, those who in the past have rejected Him will pay a horrible price, will you. No matter who's in the White House there will be those who reject the president even though they have had contact with him/her so it's not contact that makes the difference, it is believing in who God is. Most people who are not impressed with God do not know who He is.

GC
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
Reply
RE: Who was "he" talking to?
(January 5, 2017 at 5:21 am)Tazzycorn Wrote: He was talking to the other gods. Most of genesis refers to beliefs first codified when the people that were to become the jews believed in the Canaanite pantheon of which yhwh was a minor war god.

This.

I recently downloaded the KJV on audible, because I commute to class and it's a long drive. I've been making my way through it and this is how it reads. It is pretty clear that he is talking to other deities at this passage. This also falls in line with the history of the Jewish people and their split from the earlier Canaanite religion which they were a part of.
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RE: Who was "he" talking to?
(January 16, 2017 at 4:22 pm)Godschild Wrote:
(January 16, 2017 at 6:42 am)chimp3 Wrote: So , you know of no person who was effectively brainwashed who escaped from that psychological trap?

Please read the whole post before replying.

GC

So...you think real Christians can not become atheists. You also think I did not read the post in its entirety. Lame attempt to minimize my response and the rejection of god by believers. 

Let me ask you , have you ever seen a children's Christmas musical performed in your church? "Mary had a Little Lamb"?
God thinks it's fun to confuse primates. Larsen's God!






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RE: Who was "he" talking to?
(January 16, 2017 at 9:21 pm)chimp3 Wrote:
(January 16, 2017 at 4:22 pm)Godschild Wrote: Please read the whole post before replying.

GC

So...you think real Christians can not become atheists. You also think I did not read the post in its entirety. Lame attempt to minimize my response and the rejection of god by believers. 

I know you did not, because I stated I did not know and further from my experiences I do not see how someone could. Minimizing your response was exactly my point.

GC
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
Reply
RE: Who was "he" talking to?
(January 16, 2017 at 7:16 pm)Godschild Wrote: I could say the same thing about evolution, no one can ever demonstrate one species becoming another because by the science of evolution it would take many thousands of years to do, seems a convenient answer doesn't it.
It's not a convenient answer, it's what has been discovered through the application of the scientific method.  No matter where a scientist is from or what he believes, he can reach the same conclusion as other scientists via this method.  This is exactly the opposite of gods and religions, where there is no reliable method for determining if there is a god, much less who it or they are.  So the theory of evolution is accepted by nearly every scientist, but there is no unified belief in god even among the most devout.

Quote:Two things here, first there's the fact that the God of creation is the only one who tells us through a book who He is and that He's unchanging, that is as far as I know, I do not know all the religions out there.
That's the same for pretty much any religious person, as there are too many religions and denominations for anyone to investigate more than just a handful.  Yet all of those people are as confident as you are that their beliefs are true and yours are either false or mistaken to some degree.  That's the point I am making-- the people who claim to have found god have not found the same one, but they are nonetheless convinced that their choice is sound.

Quote:It means that you will not shield your spirit from the Holy Spirit, as God said about pharaoh, "he has hardened his heart."
How would I shield my spirit from the holy spirit?  I suspect that we won't ever get down to actual details, just these vague explanations.  Theists will tell us that god can be found via one means or another, but they don't offer specific steps.  This happens across faiths and it is another example of a method that isn't clear or consistent.

Quote:Yes you're correct and you have shown what I stated to be true, they rejected who He is, they did not say He doesn't exist.
I think you misunderstood my point in these examples.  They knew god directly and personally and still rejected him.  Someone as magnificent as god is supposed to be would leave everyone he encounters awestruck, but god leaves people wanting all the time.  That does not make sense.

Quote:First of all Adam and Eve disobeyed God, what they did was not a rejection.
They rejected god's claim to sovereignty when they took action against his wishes.  They rejected his offer of eternal life by taking an action that would guarantee their death.

Quote:Satan and the other angels didn't believe He was omnipotent and could destroy them, they were and are powerful beings. They found out differently as we can see when some of them encountered Jesus here on earth where they were banned and asked Him not to destroy them. So yes they knew him but not well enough to believe in His omni-person. I do. Pharaoh thought he was a more powerful god and rejected God's omnipotence, he learned the hard way. I believe in His omnipotence. Judas did not believe Jesus was the all knowing God and rejected Him as the omniscient and omnipotent God because He would not destroy the Romans. I do. Those who saw the miracles and rejected Him just refuse to believe. I believe in God as He has shown himself to be, so I want speak for those others and the depth of their belief, what I will say is that I believe in the total of the God they rejected.
What makes you say that these individuals thought this way?  There is no reason for them to have.  Why would god allow them --especially his angels-- to be misguided in such a way?

Quote:Yes they did as you are doing, defying even to damnation. They just like you haven't accepted Christ as the savior He is, they all thought they knew more than God, those who in the past have rejected Him will pay a horrible price, will you. No matter who's in the White House there will be those who reject the president even though they have had contact with him/her so it's not contact that makes the difference, it is believing in who God is. Most people who are not impressed with God do not know who He is.
That would be god's fault, if he was real.  And that's the thing-- god seems to be a poor character because he is made up.  A real god would not really care what the beings on a speck of dust in his cosmic living room thought about him, and he certainly would not plan out eternal torment for them.  That's what makes him so unimpressive.  Gods are always created with human flaws even when they are designed as a form of wish-fulfillment.  Only indoctrination and cultural pressure keep people from stepping back and realizing that it's imaginary.
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."

-Stephen Jay Gould
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RE: Who was "he" talking to?
(January 17, 2017 at 7:48 am)Tonus Wrote:
(January 16, 2017 at 7:16 pm)Godschild Wrote:

It's not a convenient answer, it's what has been discovered through the application of the scientific method.  No matter where a scientist is from or what he believes, he can reach the same conclusion as other scientists via this method.  This is exactly the opposite of gods and religions, where there is no reliable method for determining if there is a god, much less who it or they are.  So the theory of evolution is accepted by nearly every scientist, but there is no unified belief in god even among the most devout.

There is no proof of one species evolving into another and there are a lot of scientist who disagree about evolution and do not draw the same conclusions. There are many scientist who do not even believe in evolution. We weren't talking about method, you were the one who brought up demonstrable. I brought up an example that's not demonstrable, no different than you did. I certainly didn't bring it up to confuse our discussion.

Quote:


Tonus Wrote:That's the same for pretty much any religious person, as there are too many religions and denominations for anyone to investigate more than just a handful.  Yet all of those people are as confident as you are that their beliefs are true and yours are either false or mistaken to some degree.  That's the point I am making-- the people who claim to have found god have not found the same one, but they are nonetheless convinced that their choice is sound.

I understand the point you're trying to make but, you did not address what I was saying, I've seen and heard about many and none of those has a book anything like the Bible, especially one that the god of their religion tells them exactly who he/she is and those gods have changed over time. The God of the Bible is unchanging as He said.
As for denomination I'm guessing you were referring to Christianity and as far as I know all but the fringe denominations (those that most protestant denomination do not accept, Latter Day Saints and ect.) believe the same things about God and that He is unchanging. Yes there are disagreements on certain matters mostly small in how the Christian church is run.

Quote:


Tonus Wrote:How would I shield my spirit from the holy spirit?  I suspect that we won't ever get down to actual details, just these vague explanations.  Theists will tell us that god can be found via one means or another, but they don't offer specific steps.  This happens across faiths and it is another example of a method that isn't clear or consistent.

You tell me when you did, I would think if you were seeking God you were confronted with conviction and refused to follow through on that conviction, you might deny it but I'm betting you remember. God will extend His grace to those who seek even to those He knows will refuse the conviction that come from the Holy Spirit. Everyone who seeks will have their chance, God makes sure of this so no one can deny they were given a chance.

Quote:


Tonus Wrote:I think you misunderstood my point in these examples.  They knew god directly and personally and still rejected him.  Someone as magnificent as god is supposed to be would leave everyone he encounters awestruck, but god leaves people wanting all the time.  That does not make sense.

They had choice and chose self over God and all have regretted their choice, they've lost everything and didn't care who they have taken with them. This should have been a warning to others just how powerful and deceptive the self is. People feel wanting because they want what God knows isn't good for them, the self is deceptive and far from omniscient. Remember those who have rejected God have regretted the choice.

Quote:First of all Adam and Eve disobeyed God, what they did was not a rejection.

Tonus Wrote:They rejected god's claim to sovereignty when they took action against his wishes.  They rejected his offer of eternal life by taking an action that would guarantee their death.

That's called sin, rejecting God's will in your life is sin and it's not rejection of Him. Children reject what parents know is best for their lives but that doesn't mean they reject their parents.

Quote:


Tonus Wrote:What makes you say that these individuals thought this way?  There is no reason for them to have.  Why would god allow them --especially his angels-- to be misguided in such a way?

Look at what's recorded in the Bible it's all there. I've even explained it in my last post. Free will, choice. If those who do not want to live in eternity with Him they only have to say no. God want and hasn't forced anyone to accept eternal life with Him. This is played out in the Bible from Genesis to Revelation.

Quote:


Tonus Wrote:That would be god's fault, if he was real.  And that's the thing-- god seems to be a poor character because he is made up.  A real god would not really care what the beings on a speck of dust in his cosmic living room thought about him, and he certainly would not plan out eternal torment for them.  

Just how do you know this, where has this information come from, I know it's not in the scriptures, I know them well enough to say this. God cares because He created us and calls us His most important creation. God gave His Son for us, I know this doesn't mean anything to you however it does to hundreds of millions, it really makes no sense to me how a small percentage of the people on this planet believes the rest are wrong. I know, I know science, yet science hasn't answered the most important things in life, why, because those are not answerable by science.

Tonus Wrote:That's what makes him so unimpressive.  Gods are always created with human flaws even when they are designed as a form of wish-fulfillment.  Only indoctrination and cultural pressure keep people from stepping back and realizing that it's imaginary.

My God has no flaws, you might try and give Him flaws but, that doesn't't make it so, just your flawed opinion. The Holy Spirit makes sure those who will love God receives the grace they desire. I will agree all other gods are made up, they are there so people can deceive themselves into believing God doesn't exist. The gods of self, money, science even the ones made of wood and stone will lead to eternal punishment.

GC
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
Reply
RE: Who was "he" talking to?
(January 11, 2017 at 7:51 pm)Godschild Wrote:
(January 11, 2017 at 2:17 pm)Stimbo Wrote: Then perhaps cite all the relevant passages regarding satan specifically.

If I thought you serious I would, however I know you don't care.

GC

(January 11, 2017 at 2:50 pm)Secular Elf Wrote: Good point.

The thing about Satan, as anyone familiar with Judaism, as either a believing Jew, cultural Jew, or as a student of comparative religion can attest, is that Satan is not a person, but a title, "the accuser", and is part of the broader group of angels in Judaic mythology.  In other words, Yahweh's right-hand of justice, so-to-speak.  It was the Romano-Greek Christians of late antiquity and the early Middle Ages who made Satan into the figure of "The Devil"; the recipe is quite simple: pour in some dualism by making Satan the bad god, throw in the attributes of Hades/Pluto as the ruler of a fiery underworld, add some imagery by taking the horns and hooves of Pan and sticking them on Lucifer, pin a pointed tail and throw in a dash of red dye mixed with some superstition about the originator of tragedy and voila!  You got the king of devils and the adversary of Yahweh.

Sounds like what the biblical uneducated would say.

GC

You are funny. You just do not know how educated about the Bible I really am.
"The price of freedom is eternal vigilance."--Thomas Jefferson
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RE: Who was "he" talking to?
(January 18, 2017 at 3:30 pm)Secular Elf Wrote:
(January 11, 2017 at 7:51 pm)Godschild Wrote: Sounds like what the biblical uneducated would say.

GC

You are funny. You just do not know how educated about the Bible I really am.

Then why didn't you refer to the Bible instead of trying to make a mythology out of Satan. We see the Bible totally different, you believe it's influenced by other religions and secular thinking, I know it to be the word of God himself.

GC
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
Reply
RE: Who was "he" talking to?
(January 17, 2017 at 6:52 pm)Godschild Wrote: There is no proof of one species evolving into another and there are a lot of scientist who disagree about evolution and do not draw the same conclusions. There are many scientist who do not even believe in evolution. We weren't talking about method, you were the one who brought up demonstrable. I brought up an example that's not demonstrable, no different than you did. I certainly didn't bring it up to confuse our discussion.
There are countless examples of one species evolving into another, it has even been observed in modern times.  Creationists try to get around this by claiming that it's not a case of one "kind" becoming another, such as dog giving birth to cats.  That's not what the theory of evolution predicts, so of course it never happens.  Between genetics and archeology the evidence is so clear that the 'proof' you demand is in the form of the various trees of life, all of which map onto one another accurately and show the lineages for most --if not all-- of modern species.

Quote:I understand the point you're trying to make but, you did not address what I was saying, I've seen and heard about many and none of those has a book anything like the Bible, especially one that the god of their religion tells them exactly who he/she is and those gods have changed over time. The God of the Bible is unchanging as He said.
As for denomination I'm guessing you were referring to Christianity and as far as I know all but the fringe denominations (those that most protestant denomination do not accept, Latter Day Saints and ect.) believe the same things about God and that He is unchanging. Yes there are disagreements on certain matters mostly small in how the Christian church is run.
When I say denomination I mean that the major religions are all fragmented into many smaller groups.  They share many basic beliefs but differ in others, and some of those disagreements are sufficient to cause enmity and even bloodshed between them.  And in this, Christianity is just like the rest.  As for God being unchanging, the Yahweh of the old testament is a very different god from the Jesus of the new.  Then again, "unchanging" is another of those words that can be defined, interpreted, and applied as needed to 'prove' the point to each believer's satisfaction.

Quote:You tell me when you did, I would think if you were seeking God you were confronted with conviction and refused to follow through on that conviction, you might deny it but I'm betting you remember. God will extend His grace to those who seek even to those He knows will refuse the conviction that come from the Holy Spirit. Everyone who seeks will have their chance, God makes sure of this so no one can deny they were given a chance.
See, this is what I mean.  You can't explain how someone does this, otherwise you might not have a way out if I say that I took those steps.  No matter how I would explain my experiences as a believer you will insist that somewhere I took a misstep or failed to follow the formula.  You need this in order to sustain your belief structure, but I don't.  To you, this is evidence that your beliefs are true.  To me, it's clear that they're not because you need to invent a scenario for me in order to support your view.

Quote:They had choice and chose self over God and all have regretted their choice, they've lost everything and didn't care who they have taken with them. This should have been a warning to others just how powerful and deceptive the self is. People feel wanting because they want what God knows isn't good for them, the self is deceptive and far from omniscient. Remember those who have rejected God have regretted the choice.
That doesn't address what I said.  Think about how impressive you believe god to be, and how you would feel if you were allowed in his presence.  How powerful he would be, how wise, how intelligent, how loving.  Do you think that you could ever turn your back on him?  After all, you are possessed of the same self that those others were, and you say the self is deceptive and not all-knowing.  If they could do it, you could do it.  If you cannot possibly do it, then they could not possibly have done it.

Quote:That's called sin, rejecting God's will in your life is sin and it's not rejection of Him. Children reject what parents know is best for their lives but that doesn't mean they reject their parents.
They understood that turning their backs on him meant death.  They rejected what god offered on pain of death, ergo they rejected him.

Quote:Look at what's recorded in the Bible it's all there. I've even explained it in my last post. Free will, choice. If those who do not want to live in eternity with Him they only have to say no. God want and hasn't forced anyone to accept eternal life with Him. This is played out in the Bible from Genesis to Revelation.
I'm going to assume you don't have specific examples, then?

Quote:Just how do you know this, where has this information come from, I know it's not in the scriptures, I know them well enough to say this. God cares because He created us and calls us His most important creation. God gave His Son for us, I know this doesn't mean anything to you however it does to hundreds of millions, it really makes no sense to me how a small percentage of the people on this planet believes the rest are wrong. I know, I know science, yet science hasn't answered the most important things in life, why, because those are not answerable by science.
No religion has a majority of the population on its side.  Many religious people will dismiss others as not being "true" members of their faith when it is convenient.  So it seems that if there was a god the best he is able to do is convince a small percentage to find salvation.  This flies in the face of any claim that he wishes for everyone to be saved.  Nothing is impossible for god except doing the one thing that would show how loving he claims to be.

Quote:My God has no flaws, you might try and give Him flaws but, that doesn't't make it so, just your flawed opinion. The Holy Spirit makes sure those who will love God receives the grace they desire. I will agree all other gods are made up, they are there so people can deceive themselves into believing God doesn't exist. The gods of self, money, science even the ones made of wood and stone will lead to eternal punishment.
Yahweh is jealous, angry, violent, vengeful, petty, a poor planner... the list goes on.  Many Christians don't deny his flaws.  They prefer to justify them by placing him on a level of his own where his flaws aren't flaws because he transcends laws and morals.  But put a human in that role and he would be history's greatest villain.  His status as an invented deity is partly shown by his specialty-- he is Jehovah, God of Armies.  He is originally a war god, part of a pantheon of gods.  Otherwise we must accept that one of the descriptors that he gave to himself was the personification of war itself.  A very different god than the one that personifies love in the new testament.
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."

-Stephen Jay Gould
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