Guys.....isn't this going a bit too far?

[ErGingerbreadMandude]

A woman does have a right to decide what we do with that, so if she chooses not to be an incubator for 40 weeks

Sure, she can do anything to her body as long as it doesn't affect another life. The same way I can do whatever I wanted to, like moving my fist anywhere I please but if my fist meet a face that's assault. Does that makes sense to you?

If it were possible to transplant the foetus into the biological father?

If you have to explore impossible scenarios to prove your point, do you really have a point in the first place?

The question is, should any person be forced to use their body as an incubator against their will?

That's rather dishonest of you. Nobody is forcing anybody against their will unless you're talking about rape..

[FatAndFaithless]

No human (fetus, toddler, or adult) has the right to use someone else's body against their will. If you want to say a 5 day old blastocyst is a human, fine. You want to say a 20 week old fetus is a human, fine. Regardless, that human doesn't have the right to confiscate the mother's body against her will.

Whatever their reasons for doing it (which I may or may not think are 'moral'), a woman has the legal right to bodily autonomy, just like I do.

[Divinity]

Always funny how men, who can't get pregnant, are more than happy to force women to give birth when they get pregnant.

I doubt very much those same men would be happy to let their wife or girlfriend tell them they have to get a vasectomy.

[Shell B]

Sadly, Divinity, there are a heaping shitload of women who do the same thing. I have a particularly stupid and emotional "friend" who is constantly on and on about birth control and condoms. This bitch was pregnant at 15 and is not a single mother of two kids struggling like a motherfucker. It's like, sure, dude. You could have used birth control too and spared the world your constant sob stories, but ya didn't. You could've got an abortion and done something with your life, contributed to society, etc., but ya didn't. Fuck you for telling people what to do.

My particular favorite is "close your legs." Fuck's sake, I hate people.

[ErGingerbreadMandude]

a woman has the legal right to bodily autonomy, just like I do.

Everybody has a right to body autonomy but nobody is exempt from the consequences of how they use their body.

No human (fetus, toddler, or adult) has the right to use someone else's body against their will.

So now you're arguing biology isn't fair..well, it isn't. Besides, did the baby ask to be made? That decision was made by a woman and a man.

Regardless, that human doesn't have the right to confiscate the mother's body against her will.

Because the baby woke up one day and decided, "I'm going to confiscate her body."? This is neither a demon baby nor a story from the Bible.

[FatAndFaithless]

a woman has the legal right to bodily autonomy, just like I do.

Everybody has a right to body autonomy but nobody is exempt from the consequences of how they use their body.

No human (fetus, toddler, or adult) has the right to use someone else's body against their will.

So now you're arguing biology isn't fair..well, it isn't. Besides, did the baby ask to be made? That decision was made by a woman and a man.

Regardless, that human doesn't have the right to confiscate the mother's body against her will.

Because the baby woke up one day and decided, "I'm going to confiscate her body."? This is neither a demon baby nor a story from the Bible.

The baby didn't decide it any more than, in many cases, the woman and man decided.  Accidental pregnancies are just that, accidental, and even if they aren't accidents, consent to becoming pregnant isn't consent to staying pregnant.

It's the law that would be confiscating her body, Pool. The law would be forcing her to remain pregnant and use her body for something which she does not want. That's what we're talking about. The law, not biology, and the law is supposed to be fair, chum.

The 'decision' of the fetus isn't what's relevant here.  The salient point is that a woman's body is being used by another human against her will.  There is no other situation in which we would be okay with that.  So unless you're saying that fetuses get 'special' rights that the rest of humans don't get, then she has the right to bodily autonomy.

[ErGingerbreadMandude]

@FAF,

So let's get this straight.
You're saying a human baby doesn't have the right to use a woman's body against her will.

1) You're wrong because the baby didn't ask to be made. It was put there by a joint effort from a man and a woman.

Analogically speaking, no restaurant has a right to put their food in your mouth. Let's say you go to have dinner out and eat their food. According to you, you should be able to sue them when you no longer want their food inside you.

The problem with your argument is that you're removing any sort of accountability from two people and trying to somehow pin everything on a baby which didn't ask to be made in the first place.

2) Even if you were right it still doesn't justify the killing. It's like inviting your neighbours over and blasting a shotgun in their face for trespassing your property.

[FatAndFaithless]

@FAF,

So let's get this straight.
You're saying a human baby doesn't have the right to use a woman's body against her will.

1) You're wrong because the baby didn't ask to be made. It was put there by a joint effort from a man and a woman.

Analogically speaking, no restaurant has a right to put their food in your mouth. Let's say you go to have dinner out and eat their food. According to you, you should be able to sue them when you no longer want their food inside you.

The problem with your argument is that you're removing any sort of accountability from two people and trying to somehow pin everything on a baby which didn't ask to be made in the first place.

2) Even if you were right it still doesn't justify the killing. It's like inviting your neighbours over and blasting a shotgun in their face for trespassing your property.

Your analogies are sloppy and not at all relevant to my point, namely that the 'decision' of the fetus is utterly unrelated to my position.  The fact that you think my position justifies 'killing' is another mark of your misunderstanding (possibly willful).  

I've had the abortion debate countless times on this forum with people that are far more amenable to actual, reasonable conversation than you, and those were productive discussions.  I think I'm done with this one though, I'm not in the mood to wade through a pool of flat talking points, again.

[ukatheist]

Sure, she can do anything to her body as long as it doesn't affect another life. The same way I can do whatever I wanted to, like moving my fist anywhere I please but if my fist meet a face that's assault. Does that makes sense to you?

Not so. If I purposefully or even accidentally smash my face into your fist, that is not you assaulting me.

If you have to explore impossible scenarios to prove your point, do you really have a point in the first place?

It was a hypothetical to try to gauge whether you believe that a foetus has an overriding right to inhabit any persons body, or just the body of the mother. And I noticed that you didn't answer...

That's rather dishonest of you. Nobody is forcing anybody against their will unless you're talking about rape..

Consent to sex does not equal consent to be impregnated. No method of contraception is fully effective and not every instance of unprotected sex leads to pregnancy. Do I think that women in general should take every precaution they reasonably can to prevent an unwanted pregnancy? Of course, but I don't pretend that even if they do, unwanted pregnancies will not occur, nor do I believe that any woman should be forced to continue an unwanted pregnancy if they fail to take precautions, even if I believe this is irresponsible.

[ErGingerbreadMandude]

Consent to sex does not equal consent to be impregnated.

Pregnancy is a consequence of sex so the consent is implied. Will you give consent to throw you off a building and then sue because you didn't consent to have your bones broken?

Of course, but I don't pretend that even if they do, unwanted pregnancies will not occur,

Would've been true 20 something years ago. A wide variety of options are available today. Options for both men and women.

nor do I believe that any woman should be forced to continue an unwanted pregnancy if they fail to take precautions

I like the idea but unfortunately it involves taking the life of another human so I don't agree with it.