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RE: Doubt in disbelief
January 23, 2017 at 8:47 pm
(January 23, 2017 at 6:41 pm)Alex K Wrote: (January 23, 2017 at 6:23 pm)Cephus Wrote: Not only would everyone at the site have seen the same thing, but so too would everyone on the planet. The sun can't just wobble in one place and be still in another. That means that something else is going on.
Nah... once you allow for miracles, that argument is out the window - Every observation is compatible with God magic
You are misinterpreting the real miracle!
Making the sun dance around the sky wasn't the real miracle. That's trivial shit.
Doing that without it being noticed by the rest of humanity, and not having catastrophic consequences for the Earth's orbit, that's the miracle.
Doubter! Infidel! Heretic!
You'd believe if you just opened your heart" is a terrible argument for religion. It's basically saying, "If you bias yourself enough, you can convince yourself that this is true." If religion were true, people wouldn't need faith to believe it -- it would be supported by good evidence.
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RE: Doubt in disbelief
January 23, 2017 at 10:48 pm
(January 23, 2017 at 6:23 pm)Cephus Wrote: Not only would everyone at the site have seen the same thing, but so too would everyone on the planet. The sun can't just wobble in one place and be still in another. That means that something else is going on.
bold mine
Wouldn't this be 1/2 of everyone?
I don't have an anger problem, I have an idiot problem.
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RE: Doubt in disbelief
January 23, 2017 at 11:40 pm
(January 23, 2017 at 10:48 pm)mh.brewer Wrote: (January 23, 2017 at 6:23 pm)Cephus Wrote: Not only would everyone at the site have seen the same thing, but so too would everyone on the planet. The sun can't just wobble in one place and be still in another. That means that something else is going on.
bold mine
Wouldn't this be 1/2 of everyone?
Yes, you are correct.
There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide mankind that cannot be achieved as well or better through secular means.
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RE: Doubt in disbelief
January 24, 2017 at 12:47 am
That would be a miracle!
No God, No fear.
Know God, Know fear.
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RE: Doubt in disbelief
January 24, 2017 at 1:25 am
(January 23, 2017 at 1:23 pm)Crossless1 Wrote: In other news, Constantine had a dream . . . .
Did he? The story appears in two accounts both by xtian writers and they differ significantly from each other. You know, its just possible that these xtian fucks were making all of this shit up to advance their cause.
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RE: Doubt in disbelief
January 24, 2017 at 10:32 am
(January 24, 2017 at 1:25 am)Minimalist Wrote: (January 23, 2017 at 1:23 pm)Crossless1 Wrote: In other news, Constantine had a dream . . . .
Did he? The story appears in two accounts both by xtian writers and they differ significantly from each other. You know, its just possible that these xtian fucks were making all of this shit up to advance their cause.
Oh, I know. The great thing about so many of these claims is that one can either debunk them or just let them stand in all their nutty glory. Either way, their cause is not helped.
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RE: Doubt in disbelief
January 24, 2017 at 1:22 pm
OK I see your arguments are good so far perhaps i should give a little more detail on it. well that would be hard since it was described in many diffrent even contradictory ways but they seem to involve spinning and the sun falling,sun dogs are stationary though so that does not explain the dancing although it could have only existed in the observer's minds,wikipedia says that mass hysteria is unlikely although 3 other websites disagreed with it. never the less the catholic church says its worthy of belief but I am not sure of how high there skeptism is. There are some photos of it online I am not very good with black and white photos so maby some of you can analise them for me please.
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RE: Doubt in disbelief
January 24, 2017 at 1:36 pm
STT, I think the 'miracle' shows that when a lot of people share the same belief and expect to see the same sort of thing then given any sort of unusual occurrence those beliefs can color in the experience to suit those expectations. Either that or you'll have to decide which god, dragon or mysterious force had a hand in the event you mentioned. Must be hard to maintain your agnosticism when the beliefs which were instilled in you from an early age keep drawing you back. Good luck.
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RE: Doubt in disbelief
January 24, 2017 at 1:40 pm
At the time, people reported a wobbling or trembling of the sun.
Later, somehow, that turned into.... how did you say it?.... spinning and falling... -.-'
Wobbling or trembling can be due to lensing effects when hot air rises and, of course, would not be homogeneus, so not visible to everyone.
The miracle part, if any, was that something at all happened that precise day.... but that's also far from miraculous.
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RE: Doubt in disbelief
January 24, 2017 at 2:36 pm
(January 24, 2017 at 1:36 pm)Whateverist Wrote: STT, I think the 'miracle' shows that when a lot of people share the same belief and expect to see the same sort of thing then given any sort of unusual occurrence those beliefs can color in the experience to suit those expectations. Either that or you'll have to decide which god, dragon or mysterious force had a hand in the event you mentioned. Must be hard to maintain your agnosticism when the beliefs which were instilled in you from an early age keep drawing you back. Good luck.
Not only that, but once some people start reporting a "religious experience", you are going to get lots of others who didn't see a thing claiming that they did so they can feel special and part of the in-group.
There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide mankind that cannot be achieved as well or better through secular means.
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