Nonviolent Protest and Resistance Privileged

[Mister Agenda]

With that said, reading your op reminded me of Richard B. Gregg’s The power of non-violence, which was originally published in 1934. Posted below are some excerpts from Gregg’s book, which IMO, are relevant to your thread.  In addition, some members may also find them interesting.  With that said, thanks again for this thread.  Live long and prosper. 

Thanks for the thoughts and recommended reading, Kernel.

[Crunchy]

At the exact moment that a person is willing to trade their life for change....it's justifiable.  I may disagree with them, I might even hate them...but people don't forfeit their lives, their most prized possession, lightly, in my experience.  If a person finds themselves holding a bottle full of kerosene...and thinks to themselves "what's the worst they'll do to me, shoot me?" - then obviously we have a problem.
 

I've just returned and tried to follow the discussion going on here and most of it turns on this absolutely stupid and ridiculous comment.
I've seen the worst kind of logic and crazy semantics in attempting to justify this ridiculous comment and I feel sympathy for paulpablo having to deal with this and I commend him on staying focused and avoiding getting angry in the face of such nonsense.
 
I avoid insults and profanity as much as I can but I have to ask just what the fuck is going through some of your minds??? 
 
The problem for some of you is that when you hear such a stupid comment as above, you have a specific cause in mind for which you feel violence is justified. You then defend the stupid comment as though you are defending the cause in in mind rather than the false logic of the stupid statement. You’ve made a mistake which can be exposed as follows:
 
Nazis were willing to trade their lives for change… Nazis causes are therefore justifiable. This you tell me is a perfectly reasonable position and that you will continue to defend it? WTF???
 
Please grow up and just retract an obviously false statement that was made in the heat of “battle”.  Why can’t you just admit that you made a mistake? Why can't you ever concede a single solitary point no matter how dumb? No one will think less of you.

[The Grand Nudger]

I've just returned and tried to follow the discussion going on here and most of it turns on this absolutely stupid and ridiculous comment.
I've seen the worst kind of logic and crazy semantics in attempting to justify this ridiculous comment and I feel sympathy for paulpablo having to deal with this and I commend him on staying focused and avoiding getting angry in the face of such nonsense.

Oh joy, another one that intends to make a passtime out of missing a fairly simple point.

I avoid insults and profanity as much as I can but I have to ask just what the fuck is going through some of your minds??? 

The comments that usual suspects like yourself deign to let fall from your lips, obviously, lol.
 

The problem for some of you is that when you hear such a stupid comment as above, you have a specific cause in mind for which you feel violence is justified. You then defend the stupid comment as though you are defending the cause in in mind rather than the false logic of the stupid statement. You’ve made a mistake which can be exposed as follows:
 
Nazis were willing to trade their lives for change… Nazis causes are therefore justifiable. This you tell me is a perfectly reasonable position and that you will continue to defend it? WTF???

Did it never occur to you that the people of germany had a legitimate grievance?   You don;t really think that they were throwing themselves into combat just for the privilege of cooking a few jews...do you?    
 

Please grow up and just retract an obviously false statement that was made in the heat of “battle”.  Why can’t you just admit that you made a mistake? Why can't you ever concede a single solitary point no matter how dumb? No one will think less of you.

Begging doesn't work on me.  

[paulpablo]

my objection with you accusing me of being on drugs is that you accused me of being on drugs for making a point which you agreed with me on just a few paragraphs beforehand.

I asked, in a sarcastic manner. If you took it seriously, I'd advise you to stay away from the Internet.

You said obviously people who do a certain action find that action justifiable by the nature that they're doing that action followed by calling me a dullard.

Yes, because both points are obvious.

Then said I must be on drugs to think that people who do a certain action must feel justified in doing that action by the nature that they're doing that action.

That's the objection with that specific drugs comment.

My apologies. I had credited you with wit enough to detect sarcasm.

I can see now that that was a mistake on my part.

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And I'm concerned with people jumping in calling me dense while making contradictions.

When you need something explained to you several times over, you're being dense. If you don't fucking like it, read for comprehension. It's not that hard and I'm told England too has public schooling.

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All this talk of protest and violence/nonviolence has me pining for the heady days of self immolation. 

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Build a man a fire, you'll keep him warm for a night.

Set a man on fire, you'll keep him warm for the rest of his life.

It's not the sarcasm I object to in itself.
It's the contradiction.
You saying it's obvious someone thinks their actions are justified on the basis they're doing that action then stating that it's obvious people don't always do actions they feel are justified.

You can place your statements next to each other and it looks like you're arguing with yourself while calling yourself a dullard and accusing yourself of being on drugs.

[Thumpalumpacus]

You saying it's obvious someone thinks their actions are justified on the basis they're doing that action then stating that it's obvious people don't always do actions they feel are justified.

See, this is why I think you're an idiot. Just because someone is acting doesn't mean that they must have justified their action to themself. But when that action is going to end up in their own death, you can rest assured that they have justified it because the consequences are so far-reaching.

Look, I know nuanced thinking is not your strong point, but really, Paul, at a certain point you really need to realize -- there's nothing wrong with saying "I don't understand" and simply listening, instead of arguing every goddamned thing. Trust me, you'll learn more that way, and probably make more friends, too.

[paulpablo]

You saying it's obvious someone thinks their actions are justified on the basis they're doing that action then stating that it's obvious people don't always do actions they feel are justified.

See, this is why I think you're an idiot. Just because someone is acting doesn't mean that they must have justified their action to themself. But when that action is going to end up in their own death, you can rest assured that they have justified it because the consequences are so far-reaching.

Look, I know nuanced thinking is not your strong point, but really, Paul, at a certain point you really need to realize -- there's nothing wrong with saying "I don't understand" and simply listening, instead of arguing every goddamned thing. Trust me, you'll learn more that way, and probably make more friends, too.

When an actor takes an action ipso facto that person has decided that action is justified.

This is what you said.

So now you're continuing the argument with yourself and calling yourself an idiot by saying that just because someone has taken an action doesn't mean they have justified it to themselves.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Like I said, incapable of nuance. Thanks for making my point for me.

[paulpablo]

Like I said, incapable of nuance. Thanks for making my point for me.

it's astonishing that you can't acknowledge the blatant contradiction you made in black and white right in front of you. At the same time as trying to take the high ground by talking about nuance.

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What you're basically saying.....

By the very nature of someone taking an action they've justified that action to themselves, just because someone takes an action doesn't mean they've justified it to themselves. And if you say that's a contradiction you're not nuanced enough. You should listen and learn from me more and admit you're too dull to understand.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Like I said, incapable of nuance. Thanks for making my point for me.

it's astonishing that you can't acknowledge the blatant contradiction you made in black and white right in front of you.  At the same time as trying to take the high ground by talking about nuance.

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What you're basically saying.....

By the very nature of someone taking an action they've justified that action to themselves, just because someone takes an action doesn't mean they've justified it to themselves. And if you say that's a contradiction you're not nuanced enough. You should listen and learn from me more and admit you're too dull to understand.

I've been talking about nuance all along. It's startling that you still don't understand what is being written in plain English.

What I've said is that not every action is necessarily justified, but when you see someone sacrificing their life for a cause, you can bet that they've justified it to themselves.

Why is that so hard for you to understand?

Anyway, I'm done with you, and this exercise in casting pearls in front of swine. You go back to playing with your Legos, now.

[paulpablo]

it's astonishing that you can't acknowledge the blatant contradiction you made in black and white right in front of you.  At the same time as trying to take the high ground by talking about nuance.

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What you're basically saying.....

By the very nature of someone taking an action they've justified that action to themselves, just because someone takes an action doesn't mean they've justified it to themselves. And if you say that's a contradiction you're not nuanced enough. You should listen and learn from me more and admit you're too dull to understand.

I've been talking about nuance all along. It's startling that you still don't understand what is being written in plain English.

What I've said is that not every action is necessarily justified, but when you see someone sacrificing their life for a cause, you can bet that they've justified it to themselves.

Why is that so hard for you to understand?

Anyway, I'm done with you, and this exercise in casting pearls in front of swine. You go back to playing with your Legos, now.

Translation..... I contradicted myself now I'm going to go away shouting about how clever I am and how stupid you are.