Debate: God Exists

[The Valkyrie]

Is there a competition in this thread to create the tallest wall of quotes?

[Minimalist]

Orochi Wrote:

I have read you and every other fundie who has tried to hijack science to try and hold up the bullshit you call the truth. They have failed and so have you .So stop the mental gymnastics your not fooling anyone

Dripshit only needs to fool himself.  In that, he is utterly successful.

[Ben Davis]

Two things. If God gives those who entrusts a surplus of food with instructions to give it to the poor, and the poor die because those who have been told to distribute the food don't how does that mean God does not exist?

Hi Drich, I couldn't let this one slide. It's because, by your own definitions, God could simply give the food to the poor with no intermediary but he chooses not to. Further, God would be aware that the people to whom he entrusts food distribution are limited by personal and financial constraints which will result in the food not reaching its intended recipients. Consequently God, if he were to exist, would be deliberately choosing to kill tens of thousands of people every day. Now when we compare this to the definitions of God provided by the bible, we see that there is, in fact, a version of him which would happily do this, just to prove a point. If that's the version in which you believe, that would make you a sick apologist for a murdering maniac. However, and here's the point, there are other versions which are omnibenevolent in which case such flawed logistics would simply not exist. Since they do, the omnibenevolent god can't, due to the Law of Non-contradiction.

So which is it? Worship of a murderer or a figment of your imagination?

2) how does the death of a child mean God can not exist? Do you not understand to be absent from the body means to be present before God? That means if a kid dies they go home to their heavenly Father who's love knows no limits. How is that a bad thing?

By that logic, it's best to kill children as early as possible, so that they can reach the arms of their 'loving Father' before they have a chance to act on sin. Unless of course you believe that all people are born with sin, in which case the death of children, before they've had a chance to choose 'redemption', is a heinous and abusive act designed to force all babies in to eternal torture. This would have the added benefit of giving Satan more souls to fuel his demonic hordes. It's lose all the way if you follow this argument. So you're left with the same choice as above: either God knows about this and is happy with it, in all its sick glory, or he doesn't exist.

Oh that's right death is about what the selfish want not what is best for the dead or dying.

I firmly believe that what's best for the dead and dying, in this particular circumstance of slow starvation, is to have had enough food to eat in the first place, not to have apologetics preached at them by someone who clearly cares not a jot for the despicable injustice he's supporting. Since, for some contemptible, hateful reason, you've decided that vulnerable people deserve a slow, painful death to feed the ego of your so-called deity, I would suggest that your input to this matter is not longer welcome.

You win today's prize for most insulting post.

[Edwardo Piet]

Two things. If God gives those who entrusts a surplus of food with instructions to give it to the poor, and the poor die because those who have been told to distribute the food don't how does that mean God does not exist?

It means God either doesn't exist or he's a heartless asshole who doesn't give a shit. A truly good God would intervene and help directly when he had all the fucking power to so.

A truly good God wouldn't let children get raped because he cares more about the child rapist's "free will". A truly good God wouldn't think the important thing was sending the child rapist to hell AFTER the rape had already been done.

A truly good God who knows everything including the future and was all powerful WOULDN'T ALLOW THINGS LIKE THAT TO HAPPEN.

Free will is such a pathetic excuse. If a parent allows their children to play in traffic and their children get run over is "oh my children have free will. I didn't want to intervene on their freedoms to play in traffic" an excuse?

A truly good God would intervene directly to stop awful things in the first place... or lay down the laws of the universe in such a way that bad things couldn't happen. Because God supposedly created the laws of the universe and not the other way around, right?

And original sin is extremely retarded. All the people after Adam and Eve (who didn't even exist) aren't responsible for Adam and Eve. The fact God punishes entirely different people for Adam and Eve's behavior just further demonstrates that GOD IS A FUCKING CUNT. Well he would be if he even existed.

[masterofpuppets]

Two things. If God gives those who entrusts a surplus of food with instructions to give it to the poor, and the poor die because those who have been told to distribute the food don't how does that mean God does not exist?

It means God either doesn't exist or he's a heartless asshole who doesn't give a shit. A truly good God would intervene and help directly when he had all the fucking power to so.

A truly good God wouldn't let children get raped because he cares more about the child rapist's "free will". A truly good God wouldn't think the important thing was sending the child rapist to hell AFTER the rape had already been done.

A truly good God who knows everything including the future and was all powerful WOULDN'T ALLOW THINGS LIKE THAT TO HAPPEN.

Free will is such a pathetic excuse. If a parent allows their children to play in traffic and their children get run over is "oh my children have free will. I didn't want to intervene on their freedoms to play in traffic" an excuse?

A truly good God would intervene directly to stop awful things in the first place... or lay down the laws of the universe in such a way that bad things couldn't happen. Because God supposedly created the laws of the universe and not the other way around, right?

And original sin is extremely retarded. All the people after Adam and Eve (who didn't even exist) aren't responsible for Adam and Eve. The fact God punishes entirely different people for Adam and Eve's behavior just further demonstrates that GOD IS A FUCKING CUNT. Well he would be if he even existed.

I'd be careful if I were you, the more you write the more bullshit you will get back. That's what many Christians do when their arguments are refuted, they simply take their arguments, restructure them and present them as new ones, or pull out other lame arguments that have been refuted hundreds of times, dust them off and present them as new ones as well. Not that it matters because the God being discussed here doesn't exist (or at least I believe he does not, but in a practical sense I know he does not to the same extent I know that Santa Claus doesn't exist).

[Edwardo Piet]

Oh believe me I expect that... take a look at my post coun, thread count and join date! I kind of know from experience what the response will be!

I'm just blowing off steam.

[Drich]

Since the OP(s) pledged not to respond anymore I do not see a need to bother with going through his last post, so... On to the next one.

Hi Drich, I couldn't let this one slide. It's because, by your own definitions, God could simply give the food to the poor with no intermediary but he chooses not to.

Who are the poor? Will the poor always be poor? will famine always remain in one place? No, the poor are static the move they are or could be the previously wealthy. In truth we are always just a few bad months from living in a van down by the river. let aone living in a war torn area. (Which is where most of the starving people pics come from today) Or areas under economic sanctions by the greater world to put a people on edge with their leadership. For many like that there is little the rest of the world can do.

Like wise who are the wealthy? While it is true some really wealthy people pass great fortunes down generation after generation, but this is not who God is calling into service. We the church who have more than what we need are the who being called. And for the most part we do a good job. there are those simply by lack of awareness that don't live in a war torn area of the world who do starve needlessly.

Further, God would be aware that the people to whom he entrusts food distribution are limited by personal and financial constraints which will result in the food not reaching its intended recipients.

"just .35 cents a day..." really? The infrastructure is there. we can move tons upon tons of food for very little real costs. Politics (some good some bad) is the reason people starve now.

Consequently God, if he were to exist, would be deliberately choosing to kill tens of thousands of people every day.

Indeed.
But, have you ever heard the term a army moves on it's stomach? It means armies loose cohesion if they are not fed. Again many of these war torn areas are the places where the starving live today. If people X are being fed by people Y, but army Z is stealing the food people Y are sending to people X to feed their own army to go and make trouble for people Y or another people Y ally, then what is the logical thing to do? turn off the food people starve. Army is limited to their little version of Hell they created for themselves.

Now imagine if God did things the way you wanted and everyone had an over abundance of food. Then Army Z is not limited to their little hell hole they created in the world, all they need is some sort of mass appeal idology and the can rape pillage and storm food stores from their little corner of the world till they are happy with them selves.

Now when we compare this to the definitions of God provided by the bible, we see that there is, in fact, a version of him which would happily do this, just to prove a point.

indeed, but there is also the side who went into great detail spelling out our obligation to the poor as well. You honestly can not accept one and not the other.

If that's the version in which you believe, that would make you a sick apologist for a murdering maniac. However, and here's the point, there are other versions which are omnibenevolent in which case such flawed logistics would simply not exist. Since they do, the omnibenevolent god can't, due to the Law of Non-contradiction.

So which is it? Worship of a murderer or a figment of your imagination?

What a tiny little box you think in..
How about option three. a God Smart enough to know if everyone had equal access to equal resources nations (read how hitler began) would rise up out of the resources of others and conquer the world. Look at the regions where people typically starve like most of the time. There is constant infighting and strife along with endless hellish behavior being rained down on one another all the time. Again, what do you think would happen if somali pirates had the resources of the US navy? would the oceans of the world be a safer place or would all over sea commerce simply stop?

You in your utopic view of the perfect world does not for a moment stop to think of the greater good being served by the fact that we are not all similarly equip that we all do not have an over abundance.

I worship a God smart enough to making things equal for everyone only makes a mess. a God wise enough to only give certain resurces to certain people when they are mature enough as a people to use them. Then simply task us to take care of those in need rather than fuel the evil that look to prey on the poor.

By that logic, it's best to kill children as early as possible, so that they can reach the arms of their 'loving Father' before they have a chance to act on sin.

Sure except that their is a law against it..

Unless of course you believe that all people are born with sin, in which case the death of children, before they've had a chance to choose 'redemption', is a heinous and abusive act designed to force all babies in to eternal torture.

where in the bible is anything like that even hinted at??? You are confusing religion with God. If you do not have a clear picture of a given doctrine all spelled out in one chapter, what you have is empty religious non sense.

No. look at the parable of the talents. God only judges us based on what He has given us. If we do not have the ability to identify sin, then we are not judge by that sin.

This would have the added benefit of giving Satan more souls to fuel his demonic hordes. It's lose all the way if you follow this argument. So you're left with the same choice as above: either God knows about this and is happy with it, in all its sick glory, or he doesn't exist.

Or God simply decides to welcome in those who died based on a command He has given, or he simply turns those souls back around to another body to be tested against sin.. Again My God, the God of the bible has the freedom to do those things as He is the Alpha and Omega. Meaning he can do whatever he wants.

The religious God the Omni-max god.. the god you've disproved it limited to the two scenarios you gave.

My question to you is if you know your version of God does not exist then why would you assume I worshiped it?

I firmly believe that what's best for the dead and dying, in this particular circumstance of slow starvation, is to have had enough food to eat in the first place, not to have apologetics preached at them by someone who clearly cares not a jot for the despicable injustice he's supporting. Since, for some contemptible, hateful reason, you've decided that vulnerable people deserve a slow, painful death to feed the ego of your so-called deity, I would suggest that your input to this matter is not longer welcome.

You win today's prize for most insulting post.

and if those dead and dying people are akin to isis fighters? Again take of the rose colored glasses. Ask your self honestly who on this planet is not getting feed by someone??? ISIS held areas, Somili war torn areas North Korea hell holes like that. Sure there are children involved Not everyone is an innocent child..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o70G8oZBkHU

We must allow God the room to judge who is and is not innocent.

What else would you do? open the resources of the united states to any of those places/people I mentioned? Sorry Sport the world (apart from God) does not agree with your hippy BS. Go sell your crap somewhere else.

---

It means God either doesn't exist or he's a heartless asshole who doesn't give a shit. A truly good God would intervene and help directly when he had all the fucking power to so.

What a small minded approach. IDK, but what if 'bad' uncomfortable things like even war bring out the absolute best in us? WHAT IF Death like God said is not the end but the beginning/our birth into eternity.. who mourns the birth of a new health child Who lements and bitterly weeps when we get the news that the child comes home for the first??? If we understood death as a birth then who would judge God harshly if one of us went home early?? Then wouldn't a harsh trial that did not include death, a trial that God walks hand in hand with your though (A real hardship or disease or even the death of a loved one) be a prized event? In short our darkest hours are what define us. who we are what direction we will go and how our futures are secured. To take away this struggle is to make us pets.

f-you guys if you want the rest of the planet to live like God's dog. I want the trials I want the hardships I want the things in my life that people like you run from because it makes me stronger. It makes me more capable and stronger than what most can phantom. Live like a cream puff if you want to don't wish it on everyone else.

A truly good God wouldn't let children get raped because he cares more about the child rapist's "free will". A truly good God wouldn't think the important thing was sending the child rapist to hell AFTER the rape had already been done.

I thought the last statement was unthought out.. Why not say "a truly good God would make it physically impossible to rape period."
I mean if you are going to hell for judgeing/hating God really stick it to him! don't just p-foot around!

But then comes a matter of perspective... For instance Now Rape and murder is about the worst things one can do as far as society is concerned.
but what happens If God heard you and took every sin away except little white lies, and they become the ABSOLUTE Worse sin we can commit... I'm nt asking you to try and judge what the world would be like if white lies was the worst sin. I am asking you to take the attitude you have now for rape and or murder and assign those feeling to little white lies. because that would infact be the worst sin. Again you view on how bad sin is is based on other sin.

So Then what do you have? You have a douche bag atheist saying stuff like:
A truly good God wouldn't let children get lied to in any way shape or form because he cares more about the child liar's "free will".
Because again It is your self righteousness that judges God. 'God allowing something you would not.' So you attitude would be the same. because you are already displaying distain towards God for exposing children to our collective "worse sin."

A truly good God who knows everything including the future and was all powerful WOULDN'T ALLOW THINGS LIKE THAT TO HAPPEN.

Why not? Where in the bible does it say all children are protected? Again you are confusing God with a pet owner.

Free will is such a pathetic excuse

Have I ever preached a doctrine of 'free will?' No I teach what the bible teaches. we are slaves to sin. Little kids get raped because we serve a sin master who thirsts and desires are far greater than some of our abilities to say no. That is why Children get rape sport. So what is God's role? to buy back as many lost soul that hate serving sin. So take your free will argument and shove it. try and stay on topic. or ask a question.

. If a parent allows their children to play in traffic and their children get run over is "oh my children have free will. I didn't want to intervene on their freedoms to play in traffic" an excuse?

If you do not allow you child to play in the street you are an evil person. Yes you teach your child how to safly play in the street, and you teach the little tard when it is safe and when it is not, and you let him decide. If you little tard can't decide when it is and is not safe to play in the street they will be asking you to wipe their butts into their 50s

A truly good God would intervene directly to stop awful things in the first place...

Why? what law says every child get protection? (a lot do) but again what in the bible says ever life is priceless. I think you are confusing an add campaign with the bible. Ever think what the world would be like if hitler's dad in one of his beating sessions punch little adolf one too many times and little adolf just gave up the ghost when he was 5 or 6? You like the last guy need to take off the rose colored glasses. Understand not ever child is innocent, not every child belongs to God. What makes you guys think Satan isn't a daddy as well? what makes you think those children only have one purpose and that is to watch the world burn? Now who are you to decide which kid (Even if it was your own) belonged to God and which belonged to satan? Some kids die, not all are evil, but I can say no one will ever die before their time.

or lay down the laws of the universe in such a way that bad things couldn't happen. Because God supposedly created the laws of the universe and not the other way around, right?

Kinda like heaven you mean? Isn't the point of this life to decern who truly wants to go on to that one?

And original sin is extremely retarded. All the people after Adam and Eve (who didn't even exist) aren't responsible for Adam and Eve. The fact God punishes entirely different people for Adam and Eve's behavior just further demonstrates that GOD IS A FUCKING CUNT. Well he would be if he even existed.

Calm down nothing in the bible ever supported original sin. It was just a medieval way of selling crackers holy water and juice.

[LastPoet]

Calm down nothing in the bible ever supported original sin. It was just a medieval way of selling crackers holy water and juice.

So close, yet, so far away.

Pretty much like the bible itself.

[downbeatplumb]

Calm down nothing in the bible ever supported original sin. It was just a medieval way of selling crackers holy water and juice.

So close, yet, so far away.

Pretty much like the bible itself.

Indeed the whole thing is just one big lie, a Trumpism if you will.

[Ben Davis]

Who are the poor? Will the poor always be poor? will famine always remain in one place? No, the poor are static the move they are or could be the previously wealthy. In truth we are always just a few bad months from living in a van down by the river. let aone living in a war torn area. (Which is where most of the starving people pics come from today) Or areas under economic sanctions by the greater world to put a people on edge with their leadership. For many like that there is little the rest of the world can do.

Irrelevant. It's the simple existence of famine/inequitable food distribution that's the point here; there can not be an omnibenevolent god if famine exists. As I said previously though, some believe in the version of the biblical god that's happy to visit suffering on people for his own ends; this argument can't refute the existence of that god.

BTW, you didn't tell us which version you believe in: omnibenevolent or not?

Indeed.
But, have you ever heard the term a army moves on it's stomach? It means armies loose cohesion if they are not fed. Again many of these war torn areas are the places where the starving live today. If people X are being fed by people Y, but army Z is stealing the food people Y are sending to people X to feed their own army to go and make trouble for people Y or another people Y ally, then what is the logical thing to do? turn off the food people starve. Army is limited to their little version of Hell they created for themselves.

Also irrelevant. There would be no causes of famine if there were an omnibenevolent god.

Now imagine if God did things the way you wanted and everyone had an over abundance of food. Then Army Z is not limited to their little hell hole they created in the world, all they need is some sort of mass appeal idology and the can rape pillage and storm food stores from their little corner of the world till they are happy with them selves.

This shows no knowledge of the main causes of tribal conflicts; it's the shortage of resources that causes conflict, not equitable sufficiency. Abundance would be even more likely to eliminate trouble as even the greedy would likely be satiated. It would only be the few on the extreme edge of psychopathic gluttony who might still cause problems but they would have no mandate for power because everyone else would be satisfied. Plus, if god were omnibenevolent, he'd stop greed and gluttony, too!

indeed, but there is also the side who went into great detail spelling out our obligation to the poor as well. You honestly can not accept one and not the other.

Yes you can and people do, hence my reference to the 'different versions' of the biblical god. Either there's one entity with a severe multiple-personality disorder or there are different entities being described in one book (I'll leave out, for the sake of this argument, the option where different tribal leaders are just writing down whatever they think is necessary to maintain control of their tribes at different points in history). What's honest is recognising that it's impossible to ascribe the 'peace and love' attributes of god from certain parts of the bible to the 'hate and war' character from other parts; they're simply incompatible.

What a tiny little box you think in..
How about option three. a God Smart enough to know if everyone had equal access to equal resources nations (read how hitler began) would rise up out of the resources of others and conquer the world. Look at the regions where people typically starve like most of the time. There is constant infighting and strife along with endless hellish behavior being rained down on one another all the time. Again, what do you think would happen if somali pirates had the resources of the US navy? would the oceans of the world be a safer place or would all over sea commerce simply stop?

You in your utopic view of the perfect world does not for a moment stop to think of the greater good being served by the fact that we are not all similarly equip that we all do not have an over abundance.

I addressed this earlier in this post. Your statement simply fails to understand the primary driver for war since time immemorial.[/quote]

I worship a God smart enough to making things equal for everyone only makes a mess. a God wise enough to only give certain resurces to certain people when they are mature enough as a people to use them. Then simply task us to take care of those in need rather than fuel the evil that look to prey on the poor.

...which critically ignores the fact that an omnibenevolent god would not allow that to happen. It seems you've answered the question as to which god you worship. That saddens me.

Sure except that their is a law against it (BD edit - killing children)..
...except when god orders it, takes control of intermediaries to do it or just does it himself. That's not the act of an omnibenevolent being.

[quote]
  where in the bible is anything like that even hinted at??? You are confusing religion with God. If you do not have a clear picture of a given doctrine all spelled out in one chapter, what you have is empty religious non sense.

Erm... Here are dozens of passages that state humans are born in sin. That means that babies are subject to the punishments of sin should they die. The fact that you would try that dishonest tactic is telling.

No. look at the parable of the talents. God only judges us based on what He has given us. If we do not have the ability to identify sin, then we are not judge by that sin.

One passage to refute the dozens? I think not. But doesn't this just highlight the side-issue I'm illustrating about there being many different versions of god in the bible. The reason why there are so many denominations of christianity is because of this.

Or God simply decides to welcome in those who died based on a command He has given, or he simply turns those souls back around to another body to be tested against sin.. Again My God, the God of the bible has the freedom to do those things as He is the Alpha and Omega. Meaning he can do whatever he wants.

The religious God the Omni-max god.. the god you've disproved it limited to the two scenarios you gave.

My question to you is if you know your version of God does not exist then why would you assume I worshiped it?

I didn't assume, I asked and stated the likely options, to drive discussion. Just so I'm clear, the reason you don't accept this argument against the existence of the biblical god is because you believe that he's not omnibenevolent. Right?

and if those dead and dying people are akin to isis fighters? Again take of the rose colored glasses. Ask your self honestly who on this planet is not getting feed by someone??? ISIS held areas, Somili war torn areas North Korea hell holes like that. Sure there are children involved Not everyone is an innocent child..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o70G8oZBkHU

Okay, I'll pick this up as an aside to the main point of the thread.

So you think that god has the right to withhold food from them? Then here's a situation where I'm more moral than your god. I think everyone has the right to have sufficient, appropriate food. In fact, if everyone did, there would be fewer problems across the world.

We must allow God the room to judge who is and is not innocent.

No, I would not. Even if he existed, I would refute his authority on the basis that he's a sadistic murderer, dangerously inconsistent and dishonest; consequently an unfit judge.

What else would you do? open the resources of the united states to any of those places/people I mentioned? Sorry Sport the world (apart from God) does not agree with your hippy BS. Go sell your crap somewhere else.

The world would be demonstrably better off if there were no tribalism or national boundaries with all resources being equitably shared. Simple. I work towards that end because it's the current, tribal, nationalistic model which is flawed and dangerous.