It Took the Republicunts 8 Years To Come Up With This?

[Amarok]

In a democracy  the buck stops with the electorate . My country had 8 years of Stephen Harper. A cold distant manipulative semi autocrat. Who undermined the press gallery. Ruined our standing abroad. Rolled back environmental regulations. Muzzled scientists. Wasted tax dollars on political ads. And made us the oil industries bitch. And we kept voting him in it wasn't the NDP or Liberals fault it was ours.

[abaris]

And we kept voting him in it wasn't the NDP or Liberals fault it was ours.

In short that guy and his party managed to excite a sufficient amount of the electorate. So, yes, blame them, but blame the other side too for not presenting an appealing alternative. Something is always amiss when assclowns get elected in a democracy. And that's not only the fault of the voters but of the competing party not managing to point out why they are the better choice. They fucked it up in the first place, since the voters are always presented with choices and the opposition obviously failed to appeal.

[Aoi Magi]

A person can be smart, but "people" are stupid. If a politician seeking to win over the masses fail to realize this simple fact then they are dumber than a rock.

[Aroura]

I know this is the healthcare thread, but sinc it's kinda getting derailed into "who's fault is it?", I'd just like to say that although there is blame to go around, The white nationalist/supremecist/alt-right gaining a voice in a major political party is a big, big deal.  The racists  got the deeply religious and the deep ly xenophobic nationalists, who might themselves NOT be very racist, to band together behind Trump (and Bannon, and Pence).  It's really quite brilliant.  And frightening.

Brothers put aside your differences, and work together on what you agree on!  Of course it's all a scheme, but goddamn, they pulled it off.  

[abaris]

I know this is the healthcare thread, but sinc it's kinda getting derailed into "who's fault is it?", I'd just like to say that although there is blame to go around, The white nationalist/supremecist/alt-right gaining a voice in a major political party is a big, big deal.

What you all fail to realize is that this is indeed like American Idol. Only a select few look for programs or issues before casting their votes. Most people follow their gut feelings. And that's what made this possible, as well as all the rightwing populists in Europe.

I followed what people had to say after we barely fended off our very own rightwing candidate for the presidency. They were saying, he looks so nice or he says what has to be said. Asked for what he stands for they came up empty.

That's what the parties have to learn. If they want to win, they have to appeal. Boring doesn't cut it against extremists. Extremists incite their followers whilst moderates tend to stay at home. And this will continue as long as the opposition doesn't present something equally exciting. This was already on the horizon when Obama won his first election. His repeated slogan was change, change, change. That's what most people want one way or the other. They are all fed up with the status quo and the rightwingers make use of that sentiment by presenting their scapegoats and their fear mongering. The other side just sits there on their old programs of more of the same. And they obviously don't learn from defeat.

So, unless someone arises from the ranks who can represent the sentiment of change and put up a believable facade, this will continue.

I always laugh at people who think that voters will learn from their mistakes. They won't. Until it's too late. They will always be presented with new scapegoats to blame all the failures on. And they will swallow that message like manna from heaven. That's why we may find the twitter outbursts of Trump ridiculous. His followers gobble the bullshit up and ask for a second helping.

So, more of the same won't cut it. Someone has to come up with a believable candidate carrying a believable and exciting message.

[Amarok]

but blame the other side too for not presenting an appealing alternative

 
But that's the thing they did  while the Liberals Leadership were not popular the party was very . Hell Jack Layton (RIP) literally died campaigning ( the stress worsening his cancer which eventually killed him) The plans were there the energy was there the problem.

1. Conservative Fear- The thing is it wasn't that harper was a good leader or a charismatic politician. It was the fact he was able to delude the conservative voter who had long lived under total Liberal control of the nostalgia of being important again . It was never about issues they didn't care what the Liberals or the NDP had to offer. It was about sheer tribalism.

2. Election Fatigue - Prior to Harper we had a long stream of elections and by the time he came in everyone was sick to death of elections . And just wanted parliament to get back to work .

[Aroura]

I know this is the healthcare thread, but sinc it's kinda getting derailed into "who's fault is it?", I'd just like to say that although there is blame to go around, The white nationalist/supremecist/alt-right gaining a voice in a major political party is a big, big deal.

What you all fail to realize is that this is indeed like American Idol. Only a select few look for programs or issues before casting their votes. Most people follow their gut feelings. And that's what made this possible, as well as all the rightwing populists in Europe.

I followed what people had to say after we barely fended off our very own rightwing candidate for the presidency. They were saying, he looks so nice or he says what has to be said. Asked for what he stands for they came up empty.

That's what the parties have to learn. If they want to win, they have to appeal. Boring doesn't cut it against extremists. Extremists incite their followers whilst moderates tend to stay at home. And this will continue as long as the opposition doesn't present something equally exciting. This was already on the horizon when Obama won his first election. His repeated slogan was change, change, change. That's what most people want one way or the other. They are all fed up with the status quo and the rightwingers make use of that sentiment by presenting their scapegoats and their fear mongering. The other side just sits there on their old programs of more of the same. And they obviously don't learn from defeat.

So, unless someone arises from the ranks who can represent the sentiment of change and put up a believable facade, this will continue.

I always laugh at people who think that voters will learn from their mistakes. They won't. Until it's too late. They will always be presented with new scapegoats to blame all the failures on. And they will swallow that message like manna from heaven. That's why we may find the twitter outbursts of Trump ridiculous. His followers gobble the bullshit up and ask for a second helping.

So, more of the same won't cut it. Someone has to come up with a believable candidate carrying a believable and exciting message.

Oh, I get that it matters.  I've seen studies that show the taller candidates almost always win.  Deep voices, tans, a better hair also matter a lot to most voters.  

Charisma, essentially.  We could run the very best candidate ever, but if that person is short, has a hunch, balding, is pale or has a high voice, we are fucked!  Oh also, we need better slogans. Apparently, that swayed a LOT of so called undecideds. 

Sometimes I really hate humans.

[abaris]

 
But that's the thing they did  while the Liberals Leadership were not popular the party was very . Hell Jack Layton (RIP) literally died campaigning ( the stress worsening his cancer which eventually killed him) The plans were there the energy was there the problem.

1. Conservative Fear- The thing is it wasn't that harper was a good leader or a charismatic politician. It was the fact he was able to delude the conservative voter who had long lived under total Liberal control of  the nostalgia of being important again . It was never about issues they didn't care what the Liberals or the NDP had to offer. It was about sheer tribalism.

2. Election Fatigue - Prior to Harper we had a long stream of elections and by the time he came in everyone was sick to death of elections . And just wanted parliament to get back to work .

You got the answer, right under your nose. You and Min as well.

Your claim: The electorate is stupid.

Yes, fucking yes.

So how do you think stupid has to be adressed for winning elections? With elaborate programs or with gut instincts? With boring candidates or flashy ones?

Min brought this up as a negative. I say it's the absolute positive. This has to be adressed like any given casting show to win over as many as humanly possible.

[Crunchy]

This is not American Idol we're talking about, you know.

The dipshits put a madman in charge of the nuclear arsenal.

The Dems had a sane, boring, policy wonk and the republicunts had a madman.  Slightly less than half of the voters chose the madman.  You're goddamn right that is who I blame.  The ones who voted for the WLB and the ones who didn't dare leave their safe space in their own heads to vote for sanity.

Yes, even more shame on the Dems for fucking this up. It is like American Idol - not only in America. If they don't manage to win enough votes, sad day for everyone. They screwed it up, they were complacent, they didn't even notice how much many people looked for the pied piper. And they show no sign of having learned their lesson. If they continue on the road of presenting a boring policy wonk, they will lose and lose again.

People don't learn. People won't even learn when this assclown fucks them over with the sordid lead pipe. They will get their scapegoats to blame. So if the other side doesn't present something exciting, promising them the change, which they all are looking for, the laurel will continue to go to the candidate with the loudest mouth.

Bill Clinton or Obama weren't boring in their campaigns. They may have failed to deliver, but they at least delivered sufficiently to win the second term. As opposed to Hillary, who oozed phony with every grin and everyone of her gestures and speeches. The main problem for her was that she didn't excite her own home team. If she had, she wouldn't have lost. Even more so since the popular vote was on her side. She lost states no Dem has lost before. That's an achievement in itself.

Looking at it from the perspective of the OP I see it this way.
The hatred and opposition to the ACA was always, only, ever about political theater. That's it. 

The republicans (not Trump) knew that it's a complex issue that the general public is simply incapable of understanding so they did what they always do... use lies to spread fear, unrest and anger, then collect the votes of the ill informed. Mission Accomplished! Conservatives are masters of getting people to vote against their own interests and they have succeeded yet again.  So, should the Democrats take on this "winning strategy"?  

The fact is that single payer is the empirically proven, most efficient system out there and is the most viable solution for getting the costs under control. (covering everyone is actually just a bonus) 
The problem is that it is ideologically unacceptable to vast numbers of the ideologically blinded who make up the american population and have been systematically manipulated by the use of lies spreading fear, unrest and anger. Democracy requires an informed electorate and that's just not the case here.

It seems to me you are both correct in that the public is simply too easy to fool, but that it's the one and only job of the Dems to figure out how to win them over and they failed.

[Amarok]

 
But that's the thing they did  while the Liberals Leadership were not popular the party was very . Hell Jack Layton (RIP) literally died campaigning ( the stress worsening his cancer which eventually killed him) The plans were there the energy was there the problem.

1. Conservative Fear- The thing is it wasn't that harper was a good leader or a charismatic politician. It was the fact he was able to delude the conservative voter who had long lived under total Liberal control of  the nostalgia of being important again . It was never about issues they didn't care what the Liberals or the NDP had to offer. It was about sheer tribalism.

2. Election Fatigue - Prior to Harper we had a long stream of elections and by the time he came in everyone was sick to death of elections . And just wanted parliament to get back to work .

You got the answer, right under your nose. You and Min as well.

Your claim: The electorate is stupid.

Yes, fucking yes.

So how do you think stupid has to be adressed for winning elections? With elaborate programs or with gut instincts? With boring candidates or flashy ones?

Min brought this up as a negative. I say it's the absolute positive. This has to be adressed like any given casting show to win over as many as humanly possible.

Accept the Liberals and NDP appealed to Gut instinct and Flash to no avail. Because as I said people were tired of elections and conservatives just wanted a conservative they didn't care who it was or what the other side had to say.