Theists: What is the most compelling argument you have heard for Atheism?

[Neo-Scholastic]

"Jew" is a religion, not a race, not a nation.

While I agree that race is a social construct, you must admit that for some totalitarians, from National Socialists to Islamists, Jews are definitely a race.

[downbeatplumb]

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I will lump all the theists, deists and pantheists into one and explain why there are all wrong.

They appeal to the supernatural and there is no evidence that supernatural is a thing.

The end.

Along with other things, the NT contains all kind of evidence. So, there seems to be evidence. You may not know enough about it to find it compelling evidence, but you can't make the claim there is none.
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No it doesn't, the new testament contains claims unsupported by evidence.

By your standard any claim ever made anywhere by anyone must be seen as evidence. So all those people who say the world is flat is evidence that the world is flat or people who believe in trolls or fairies or angels because they believe it is evidence for those things.

It is the claim and not evidence.

[SteveII]

Along with other things, the NT contains all kind of evidence. So, there seems to be evidence. You may not know enough about it to find it compelling evidence, but you can't make the claim there is none.

No it doesn't, the new testament contains claims unsupported by evidence.

By your standard any claim ever made anywhere by anyone must be seen as evidence. So all those people who say the world is flat is evidence that the world is flat or people who believe in trolls or fairies or angels because they believe it is evidence for those things.

It is the claim and not evidence.

Two issues (both of which I posted recently in another thread).

The first is Evidence refers to pieces of information or facts that help us establish the truth of something. Proof is a conclusion about the truth of something after analyzing the evidence. Evidence is suggestive of a conclusion. Proof is concrete and conclusive.

Proof can have different thresholds. Anywhere from more likely than not (preponderance of the evidence), to beyond a reasonable doubt, to absolute. These are all arrived at by considering evidence.

So, to say that my list is not evidence is simply wrong. What you mean is that in your opinion, it is not proof. That's fine, I don't care what your opinion is.

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The second issue is the New Testament not being the claim:

1. The gospels and Acts catalog the claim. The balance are letters discussing and applying the claim.
2. The NT consists of 27 different documents written over 50 years time (give or take). It's a little bit of an understatement to describe such a diverse collection of palaeographical gold as "NT claims" as if it were one thing.

No, the claim is that the events outlined in the gospels really happened--one in particular: that Jesus Christ, the son of God, came to earth to redeem humanity and provide a way for people to have a relationship with God. Evidence for this claim are the people and events surrounding the life of Jesus that the authors wrote about. It is not as if the gospel writers wrote an essay on what people were saying and gave no opinion on the facts. They were testifying to its truthfulness (as evidenced by their own experience or, in the case of Luke, by interviewing eyewitnesses as they wrote it.

In addition, the NT points out several pieces of additional evidence:

- There were churches in many major cities stretching from Palestine to Rome before Paul started to write his letters to them around 50ad. Not only were there churches, but they believed in the major events outlined in the gospels prior to the gospels and Paul's letters.
- Paul quotes several creeds in his letters that appear to have been used among the early church prior to his letters.
- Many historians think that there existed another document Q that predates the gospels and we can reconstruct parts of it from the gospels.

[Mister Agenda]

So how does the NT help us establish the truth of the claims in the NT? Besides ad populum, I mean.

[Neo-Scholastic]

So how does the NT help us establish the truth of the claims in the NT? Besides ad populum, I mean.

That is the wrong question. How do the independent testimony of the Synoptics, the Johanite communities, letters of Paul, records from Secular sources, documents of the early Church, and Archeology support and reinforce a historical picture of the 1st century, one that includes a a specific man, Jesus of Nazareth?

[Mister Agenda]

So how does the NT help us establish the truth of the claims in the NT? Besides ad populum, I mean.

That is the wrong question. How do the independent testimony of the Synoptics, the Johanite communities, letters of Paul, records from Secular sources, documents of the early Church, and Archeology support and reinforce a historical picture of the 1st century, one that includes a a specific man, Jesus of Nazareth?

I'm indifferent to the historicity of a non-miracle-working Jesus, I don't have a bet placed.

But what's called 'evidence' for the miracle-working man seems to not add up to more than 'lots of people believed he was real and really worked miracles, so he was real and really worked miracles'.

[SteveII]

So how does the NT help us establish the truth of the claims in the NT? Besides ad populum, I mean.

First, I would not say this is a case of ad populum. If my argument was solely based on "people believed", you would have a point. However, I am arguing that "people who were eyewitnesses and influenced by eyewitnesses believed". Now, of course not everyone was an eyewitness of the resurrection that belonged to those first churches, but they were alive during a time that rebuttal witnesses would have abounded. While you might say that any rebuttal witnesses might have been 'edited out' of history, we do have the evidence of the tremendous growth of the church from day 1. 

Regarding size of the church, we get a clue from Tacitus, who descibing Nero in 64AD and those arrested as "an immense multitude" in Rome. 64AD is still very much within the lifetime of eyewitnesses and rebuttal witnesses. 

Regarding the general interpreting of evidence as to who Jesus might really be? There is all kinds of evidence to weigh. 

- Documentary (both actual and inferred)
- The churches, the growth, the persecution, and the occasional mention in surviving secular works.
- The characters, their actions, character, stated goals, meaning of their words, and eventual circumstances
- Jesus' own claims (explicit, implicit, connections to the OT--some of which the disciples may have never known). 
- The actual message: how it seems to fit the human condition, resonate with people, and how it does not contradict the OT--which would have required a very sophisticated mind to have navigated that. 
- Paul and his writings on application--done before the Gospels were independently written. To have them work so well together is incredible. 
- This one can't be stressed enough: the likelihood of alternate theories to explain the facts. I think it is obvious people believed from day one when Jesus was still walking around. I have never heard a alternate theory which could account for most or all of the concrete and circumstantial evidence we have. 

You could write books on any one of the points above (and people do). The point is, it is not as simple as saying "there is no evidence" There are layers upon layers of evidence that one person or another will find somewhere between uninteresting to compelling.

[Whateverist]

There is no "NT scholorship" anymore than being an expert on Star Wars makes Yoda real. Theologians are apologists nothing more. 

"Reading Backwards" yea so what? The first 3 original Star Wars movies ended up being prequels to which the following new movies were written after the fact to be stories BEFORE the original 3. 

There is no evidence that a man named Jesus existed outside the bible's claims to confirm he existed. The oldest gospel was written way after the alleged death of the Jesus Character.[1] Josephus does not count and also was not an "eyewitness". The first compiled completed book didn't get voted on until 329 at the Council of Nicea. [2] It took over 1,000 years from the OT to the first VOTED ON completed bible and over 40 authors with books left out. [3] It seems inefficient to me to have an alleged "all powerful" god take all that time and use flawed humans to complete it with even further revisions and newer versions since. Not to mention in that 1700 years since the first completed version even among Christian sects humans have been arguing and even murdering over those different interpretations. [4]

But lets pretend he did exist, he didn't, but lets pretend he did. He would not have been a god or the "son of a god". He would have simply been a man who looked at the current surrounding religions and decided to start a new one. Just like L Ron Hubbard, a si fi writer conned people so much Scientology was started. Nobody magically is born without a second set of DNA. Nobody survives the act of torture the death story would have you believe. 

The way the NT is written reads like people trying to score political points using a popular name of that era trying to compete to create a new movement. [5] It is far more likely during the alleged time that a legend was created over a movement to which a minority group stood up to authority. [6] Much like Plato's Apology is a story not a real account of Socrates challenge to authority. Everyone likes an underdog story.

It does not matter to me one bit if he existed, there is no evidence he did. It still would not make men with magic super powers real. It would merely mean a person managed to split off from the social norms of the time and start a new business. [7] No different than when Coke and Pepsi compete. No different than saying Yuengling beer is much older than Budweiser but both are still beer, and even today you have aspiring brewers making beer in their homes hoping to make it big.

There is no such thing as a magic baby with super powers and nobody survives rigor mortis. [8] There are just humans whom market claims, some truly believe what they claim, and some are flat out con artists and don't care.

1. One significant thing you seem to be overlooking is that without Jesus, there are no Christians. There is ample evidence of Christians and their beliefs outside the NT:
   A. EVIDENCE: There were churches in many major cities stretching from Palestine to Rome before Paul started to write his letters to them around 50ad. Not only were there churches, but they believed in the major events outlined in the gospels prior to the gospels and Paul's letters. 
   B. EVIDENCE: Tacitus referred to the large community of Christians in Rome regarding the events of 64AD
   C. EVIDENCE: Thallus discussed the crucifixion of Jesus around 52AD. His work is lost but was referenced by Julius Africanus in 221AD.
   D. EVIDENCE: Pliny the Younger asked Emperor Trajan in 112 on how to deal with the Christians. 
   E. EVIDENCE: Despite your attempt to exclude, Josephus was a historian writing mainly about the political struggle of the Jews with Rome for which Jesus was not an important figure (yet). Since Jesus was not of interest to Josephus' overall goal, his mention is important in confirming he existed. 
   F. EVIDENCE: Later the Talmud calls Jesus a sorcerer and that his power comes from evil spirits--which 1) recognizes Jesus exists and 2) does not deny the miracles--only their source

You may not like the evidence, but there is large amounts of evidence that points to the fact that Jesus not only walked the earth, but people genuinely believed he was the Son of God that came to make possible a relationship with God. 

2. The Christian community had decided long before 329 what books were to be regarded as authority. The way you summarize it is intentional because you think it strengthens your argument. However, it ignores actual facts.

3. The Jews would disagree. Ask them--they wrote it. 

4. Your complaint seems to be with people. 
 
5. Nope. It would be abhorrent to a Jew to propose (let alone find followers for) a new religion that deifies someone in order to play some long-game where any goals would not be achieved for generations. Your conspiracy theory is nonsense. 

6. Talk about no evidence. 

7. You cannot get around the fact that there is ample evidence that people believed the claims of Jesus immediately following his death--even prior to them being written down in the Gospels. You need to come up with a theory that accounts for all the evidence that is more plausible than what it appears to be. You have not. 

8. Your objection to the whole story seems to be that miracles do not happen. Well, if you object to evidence that miracles happen by saying we can't accept that because miracles don't happen, you are just arguing in a circle.

Sure, you can document an actual flesh and blood individual.  Maybe there was a rabbi named Jesus who is credited with starting the xtian cult.  You could document that much, though I don't know and don't care how well that has been done.  What you can't do is document the supernatural, wooey claims made for that individual whether actual or not.  A documented natural human being doesn't get you to god or any of those extraordinary claims.

[Neo-Scholastic]

That is the wrong question. How do the independent testimony of the Synoptics, the Johanite communities, letters of Paul, records from Secular sources, documents of the early Church, and Archeology support and reinforce a historical picture of the 1st century, one that includes a a specific man, Jesus of Nazareth?

I'm indifferent to the historicity of a non-miracle-working Jesus, I don't have a bet placed.

But what's called 'evidence' for the miracle-working man seems to not add up to more than 'lots of people believed he was real and really worked miracles, so he was real and really worked miracles'.

Sounds like you've already decided that miracles cannot happen so you edit out those parts. Isn't that kind of like the file-drawer effect?

[Whateverist]

*Ninja kudos to Mr Agenda.  Hadn't read beyond the post I quoted in my last post before I echoed your take.

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I'm indifferent to the historicity of a non-miracle-working Jesus, I don't have a bet placed.

But what's called 'evidence' for the miracle-working man seems to not add up to more than 'lots of people believed he was real and really worked miracles, so he was real and really worked miracles'.

Sounds like you've already decided that miracles cannot happen so you edit out those parts. Isn't that kind of like the file-drawer effect?

I assume we'd both expect a high degree of vetting to accept such claims.  We're not just talking about whether or not somebody did something we all understand how to do ourselves.  It is hard to imagine how one would begin to show conclusively that so-and-so accomplished a 'miracle' by completely non-natural means.