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A simple question for theists
#21
RE: A simple question for theists
The story of Abraham and Isaac comes to mind immediately. IMHO it is the most puzzling and challenging story in all of Holy Scripture. Had I been Abraham, I don't know what I would have done. Thankfully, the Lord has not asked me to do any such thing and I doubt very much he ever will.

(BTW aren't you thankful that there are theists here to reply to your questions? You may want to consider that most of us stick it out in order to provide serious answers to serious questions. We hope to address the stumbling blocks (flawed objections) that prevent reasonable non-believers from coming to faith in Christ. We prefer not to deal with questions put forth with no other intention than to provoke us. Hopefully that was not your intent.)
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#22
RE: A simple question for theists
(April 3, 2017 at 9:21 am)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: The story of Abraham and Isaac comes to mind immediately. IMHO it is the most puzzling and challenging story in all of Holy Scripture. Had I been Abraham, I don't know what I would have done. Thankfully, the Lord has not asked me to do any such thing and I doubt very much he ever will.

That was before the law was given. Now it would be a contradiction to be commanded to murder--even if you thought God would raise the person up again. I don't think we should consider a contradiction from God as a possibility.
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#23
RE: A simple question for theists
(April 3, 2017 at 9:15 am)SteveII Wrote: "Thou shalt not murder" seems to apply. So, not murdering a person would in fact be obeying God. Since it is possible that your hypothetical personal instructions might be misunderstood, not originating from God, or a product of a mental defect, I would say not murdering is the right things to do. So, no dilemma, no contradiction.
How is that murder?  The fact that god decided he should die is not the highest of judgements?
"The last superstition of the human mind is the superstition that religion in itself is a good thing."  - Samuel Porter Putnam
 
           

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#24
RE: A simple question for theists
This is absurdity. If an all powerful being tells you to do something, and eternal happiness is on the line, you do it. Stab a homeless person. Eat a baby. Make sweet love to a rhinoceros. The question is all built on this flimsy premise that we know it's a specific God in a specific fictional reality, but eternity is a long time. You don't mess with that unless you're a dope.
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#25
RE: A simple question for theists
(April 3, 2017 at 9:28 am)SteveII Wrote:
(April 3, 2017 at 9:21 am)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: The story of Abraham and Isaac comes to mind immediately. IMHO it is the most puzzling and challenging story in all of Holy Scripture. Had I been Abraham, I don't know what I would have done. Thankfully, the Lord has not asked me to do any such thing and I doubt very much he ever will.

That was before the law was given. Now it would be a contradiction to be commanded to murder--even if you thought God would raise the person up again. I don't think we should consider a contradiction from God as a possibility.

I don't find that answer persuasive. It was still the age of conscience. God's command should have contradicted Abraham's divinely provided innate moral sense - the Law of the Heart, so to speak.

If I were speculating, which I clearly am, I would say that the key verse is Gen 22:8 in which Abraham says, "God will provide for Himself the lamb for the burnt offering." Now either, Abraham was merely lying to his son (the traditional view) or he was already in some sense aware that God would do just that, i.e. provide a suitable alternative.

Or alternatively, God knew that Abraham's mind was already warped by heathen culture and would have obeyed based on a common understanding that the god's occasionally demand child sacrifice. God then used that cultural evil to bring Abraham to a place where God could reveal to him the true nature of sacrificial offerings as a foreshadowing of Christ.

But as I said, it is a puzzle and I really don't know. Sometimes I think God has put these intractable dilemmas in the Bible just to make us think.
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#26
RE: A simple question for theists
(April 3, 2017 at 9:32 am)Harry Nevis Wrote:
(April 3, 2017 at 9:15 am)SteveII Wrote: "Thou shalt not murder" seems to apply. So, not murdering a person would in fact be obeying God. Since it is possible that your hypothetical personal instructions might be misunderstood, not originating from God, or a product of a mental defect, I would say not murdering is the right things to do. So, no dilemma, no contradiction.
How is that murder?  The fact that god decided he should die is not the highest of judgements?

The question specifically said "innocent".
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#27
RE: A simple question for theists
(April 1, 2017 at 12:23 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote:
(April 1, 2017 at 11:13 am)Drich Wrote: Here's the thing sport.

God told us not to follow any new or direct revelations if the contradict how we are told to live in the bible.

Book, chapter, and verse?

2 Tim chapter 3 starting @ 10 and going though chapter 4 ending at 8
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...ersion=ERV

There is a whole set up to this back of scripture. I do not understand why the chapter ended early/mid point. Anyway the crux of what is being discussed is where timothy can find the discernement he may need to navigate all the negitiv influences Paul is writing him about. This can be found in verse 16

16 All Scripture is given by God. (not just OT, as we live under the NT we are responsible for that as it has since been deemed Christian Scripture.) And all Scripture is useful for teaching and for showing people what is wrong in their lives. It is useful for correcting faults and teaching the right way to live. 17 Using the Scriptures, those who serve God will be prepared and will have everything they need to do every good work.

17 kinda sums it all up. If we seek to do a good work under God/a Work God would have us do, then it must by the book/scripture it must be done.

This is also supported in chapter 4:3 forward in that Paul identifies that their will be a time when people will want to stop listening the truth Timothy has derived from the scriptures, but Paul encourages him to stay the course even thought people aren't going to like what he has to say.

better yet in:
2peter 1:19 through the end of chapter 3

Peter illustrates by identifying false teachers of his day by using scripture against what these false teachers do and say. by the scripture he is able to identify several different sins from which these teachers build their ministries from.

So from Paul the over all "If you want to do a good deed for God a deed in which God has purposed for you (meaning along the lines of a life calling) then it is from the scripture (ALL OF IT NOT JUST THE OT) can you find ALL The info you need to COMPLETE Your task.

Then Peter delivers a sermon using what paul said to identify what plagued his own church/ministry. And He showed his congregation how 'false teachers' do not measure up against scripture.

(April 1, 2017 at 1:14 pm)masterofpuppets Wrote: It seems that no theist answered my question properly. I'm not interested in responses saying God would never do that, or that God's implication is different. My question is simple. God is supposed to be the ultimate and perfect moral framework for everything. Therefore, in accordance with the situation of God telling someone that they 100% must kill someone, all theists should answer "yes, because God's intentions are perfect". If not, that is a contradiction of their beliefs.

Again, the question was answered because again in 2tim 3:16-17, Scripture (all of it) is the final filter we have been given to discern what is and what is not God/Good.

We are not to simply trust something that claims to be God.

I'm sure Mohammad and Joseph Smith saw what they claimed and god one hell'va light show to "prove" what they were communicating with was of God.

However the content they were given did not pass though the filter of scripture. Yet they went on.

The same thing is true here sport. Despite what you claim God could or could not say, the personal revelation given (go kill "X") does not pass the filter of you shall not murder.

(April 1, 2017 at 2:02 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote:
(April 1, 2017 at 11:13 am)Drich Wrote: Here's the thing sport.

God told us not to follow any new or direct revelations if the contradict how we are told to live in the bible.

If God told one of us to kill someone period apart from what the rule of law is willing t support, then what that person is talking to is not God.

The god of the bible orders death and commits murder personally on a fairly regular basis. So it is established that god has ordered death in the bible. If you would not commit a murder ordered by god because of your morality you are admitting two things, firstly that god is not the arbiter of morality and second that your morality is superior to gods.

Book chapter and verse please..

(Where He orders Christian to murder people.)
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#28
RE: A simple question for theists
(April 3, 2017 at 9:47 am)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: Sometimes I think God has put these intractable dilemmas in the Bible just to make us think.

Ironic really when the final end position for the majority of indoctrinated believers is to not think.

Sent from my SM-G928F using Tapatalk
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#29
RE: A simple question for theists
I find the above discussion very interesting indeed, but again I don't find the answers to the question to be satisfactory, and the references to scripture are irrelevant. God's direct words are supposed to be that of absolute authority. Assuming the Bible is true, a direct instruction from God should take precedence over the Bible, because the Bible simply lays out what God has allegedly revealed to other people. God can still override this. According to the dictates of Christianity, if God says something, absolutely nothing is supposed to be able to challenge that.
"Faith is the excuse people give when they have no evidence."
  - Matt Dillahunty.
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#30
RE: A simple question for theists
(April 3, 2017 at 9:28 am)SteveII Wrote: That was before the law was given. Now it would be a contradiction to be commanded to murder--even if you thought God would raise the person up again. I don't think we should consider a contradiction from God as a possibility.

So, your source of objective morality changed the moral guidelines?

Weird...
Even if the open windows of science at first make us shiver after the cozy indoor warmth of traditional humanizing myths, in the end the fresh air brings vigor, and the great spaces have a splendor of their own - Bertrand Russell
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