What to do about North Korea?

[Mister Agenda]

Flood the country with smart phones and cell towers.

[Neo-Scholastic]

Flood the country with smart phones and cell towers.

That's what I always thought since the Rodney King incident - parachute in video cameras.

[CapnAwesome]

The only real kind of pressure we have with China: Political and diplomatic.

Economic pressure won't do anything

Could you be a little more specific? I mean, what exactly could we do to pressure China? I mean I hear all the time that we should put pressure on China to do something about North Korea. Trump himself said much the same thing. But if we told China to do something about North Korea, it seems to me they would just tell us to go fuck ourselves. So I'd be curious as to what Political or Diplomatic pressure you think we could put on them to make them do anything about North Korea.

[Anomalocaris]

China keeps North Korea alive because china sees North Korea as an indispensable tool in an unequal struggle with the US over influence in their own back yards.

Therefore they will hardly concede North Korea to us and thereby concede even more influence to us in their own backyard without extracting a commensurate price from the US. For them the commensurate price is America giving up positional or alliance advantages such that the relative balance of power between the US and china would become more equal even after china gives up North Korea, than before.

What is America willing to give up that is worth more to america's relative position compared to china, than North Korea is worth to China's relative position to America?

The answer is almost certainly nothing. So there is no diplomatic solution to this impass.

[CapnAwesome]

China keeps North Korea alive because china sees North Korea as an indispensable tool in an unequal struggle with the US over influence in their own back yards.

Therefore they will hardly concede North Korea to us and thereby concede even more influence to us in their own backyard without extracting a commensurate price from the US.   For them the commensurate price is America giving up positional or alliance advantages such that the relative balance of power between the US and china would become more equal even after china gives up North Korea, than before.

What is America willing to give up that is worth more to america's relative position compared to china, than North Korea is worth to China's relative position to America?

The answer is almost certainly nothing.   So there is no diplomatic solution to this impass.

Interesting. I mean I think you are right, except maybe we could give up something. Probably nothing that we'd want to give up though. Let's hypothetically say we traded our support for Taiwan for China's support for North Korea. If China decided to stop supporting North Korea, what would happen then? It's not like that would be an automatic solution to the problem or anything.

[Minimalist]

I suspect the Chinese have a far greater grasp of the situation in NK than we do.  Would not surprise me to learn that they have co-opted one of Kim's body guards to put a bullet in the back of his head when China feels the need.  Right now though Kim is providing a useful distraction for China.  The moment he becomes too great a risk for them he's a dead man.

[Anomalocaris]

China keeps North Korea alive because china sees North Korea as an indispensable tool in an unequal struggle with the US over influence in their own back yards.

Therefore they will hardly concede North Korea to us and thereby concede even more influence to us in their own backyard without extracting a commensurate price from the US.   For them the commensurate price is America giving up positional or alliance advantages such that the relative balance of power between the US and china would become more equal even after china gives up North Korea, than before.

What is America willing to give up that is worth more to america's relative position compared to china, than North Korea is worth to China's relative position to America?

The answer is almost certainly nothing.   So there is no diplomatic solution to this impass.

Interesting. I mean I think you are right, except maybe we could give up something. Probably nothing that we'd want to give up though. Let's hypothetically say we traded our support for Taiwan for China's support for North Korea. If China decided to stop supporting North Korea, what would happen then? It's not like that would be an automatic solution to the problem or anything.

I think the US would also have to offer to withdraw from South Korea. For china to stop support North Korea, china would want assurance the collapse of North Korea won't bring a country allied with the US and hosting us forces on its soil right up to Chinese border.

Also, the solution of having china invade and crush North Korea is also impossible. North Korea has nuclear weapons and Beijing with its 15 million people is just a couple of hundred miles from china North Korean border.

[CapnAwesome]

Interesting. I mean I think you are right, except maybe we could give up something. Probably nothing that we'd want to give up though. Let's hypothetically say we traded our support for Taiwan for China's support for North Korea. If China decided to stop supporting North Korea, what would happen then? It's not like that would be an automatic solution to the problem or anything.

I think the US would also have to offer to withdraw from South Korea.   For china to stop support North Korea, china would want assurance the collapse of North Korea won't bring a country allied with the US and hosting us forces on its soil right up to Chinese border.  

Also, the solution of having china invade and crush North Korea is also impossible.  North Korea has nuclear weapons and Beijing with its 15 million people is just a couple of hundred miles from china North Korean border.

That's why I don't think that people who say we should pressure China into taking care of North Korea really makes any sense. Why are the Chinese any more capable then America of safely dealing with North Korea? Of course they are not. Like you said, I don't think we have anything to give the Chinese that would convince them to invade a nuclear armed country right next to their border. Nor do the Chinese have any particular reason to make North Korea a liberal democracy. They don't want more liberal democracies. So saying that China could take care of North Korea makes no sense when you get more then two steps deep into the idea.

Irregardless, I don't share your total pessimism. I mean, South Korea was a totalitarian dictatorship not even that long ago and today people there have a lot of freedom.

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I suspect the Chinese have a far greater grasp of the situation in NK than we do.  Would not surprise me to learn that they have co-opted one of Kim's body guards to put a bullet in the back of his head when China feels the need.  Right now though Kim is providing a useful distraction for China.  The moment he becomes too great a risk for them he's a dead man.

Killing Kim isn't going to do anything. I mean the other one died and the system didn't change.

[Anomalocaris]

I suspect the Chinese have a far greater grasp of the situation in NK than we do.  Would not surprise me to learn that they have co-opted one of Kim's body guards to put a bullet in the back of his head when China feels the need.  Right now though Kim is providing a useful distraction for China.  The moment he becomes too great a risk for them he's a dead man.

Given the paranoid informer state atmosphere in North Korea, the willingness of that regime to shoot anyone however high in the government, military and security hierarchy on the slightest pretext, and the massive and evidently largely successful brainwashing of the entire population, I would not be surprised if no one outside North Korea has any serious operatives inside that country.

[popeyespappy]

Flood the country with smart phones and cell towers.

Might be a good test market for Amazon drone deliveries.