Can prayer change God's perfect plan?

[Catholic_Lady]

A few things.

First, what do you mean exactly by "God's perfect plan?"

God's plan for us the big picture, and that is that we live this life in a way that reflects love and goodness in our hearts so that we can go on to enjoy it to its fullest in the afterlife. We can choose to follow that plan or not, but that is up to us.

Some people like to think that every little thing that happens was purposely made to happen by the hand of God Himself. But that is simply not true. God is not a micromanager. He created this world with us in it and allows nature to happen as it will, and allows us to make our own choices. I know many Christians buy into this "everything happens for a reason" mentality, but that is simply not true, imho. God's plan is with the eternal result, big picture. Not with details of this life which are insignificant when put into perspective.

Second, God exists in a dimension that is outside of time. So He already knows that we will pray before we do so because He has already seen us do it. Think of it as looking at a cube - you can see all 3 dimensions at one glance. If time is a fourth dimension, imagine that God can see all of it at once, in a similar way.

So for example: a couple wants a child but is battling infertility, and they pray to God every day asking to be blessed with a child. They end up getting pregnant with a healthy baby against all odds. God answered their prayer. But God already knew ahead of time that this child would come into existence because He already knew that the parents would pray for one and that their prayers would be answered. This child didn't change anything. God already knew the parents would pray and He already knew He would answer those prayers.

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You want to get the opinion of people with strong faith? I think you came to the wrong site for that.

If you want my opinion, though, prayer doesn't seem to have any effect.

Oh I believed the site would have persons with faith.

Then what is the religion section for?

It is mainly used for making fun of people of faith and pointing out every time a religious person does something bad.

[vorlon13]

“Pray, v. To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner, confessedly unworthy.”

- Ambrose Bierce


That sums it up fairly succinctly I think. There's no reason to believe that prayer increases the likelihood of one outcome over another.  No matter which outcome occurs the brainwashed cat attribute it to god... Prayed for outcome: "It's an answered prayer!" - The other outcome: "It's god's will." "This momentary affliction is preparing us for an eternal weight of glory..." 

If it's going to be god's will anyway, why not just leave him* alone?



*"him" - this personal pronoun is being used in reference to the innumerable depictions of ominous, white bearded old men sitting in the clouds; it is in no way referring to the belief that an omnipotent creator has any need or desire for gender identification.

kinda like confirmation bias on steroids.  God cannot fuck this sort of thing up no matter what He does.

[mediocrates]

So for example: a couple wants a child but is battling infertility, and they pray to God every day asking to be blessed with a child. They end up getting pregnant with a healthy baby against all odds. God answered their prayer. But God already knew ahead of time that this child would come into existence because He already knew that the parents would pray for one and that their prayers would be answered. This child didn't change anything. God already knew the parents would pray and He already knew He would answer those prayers.

Meanwhile, at the fertility clinic...

Doctor: "You're welcome?"
Nurse: "Don't hold your breath; they 'prayed.'"
Doctor: "Ahh, I see.  Want to grab a beer?"
Nurse: "Sure, I could use a night of debauchery."
Doctor: "I'll get my hat!"

[mlmooney89]

It is mainly used for making fun of people of faith and pointing out every time a religious person does something bad.

I'm confused, if that is all it is here for why are you here? If we are just bullies why are we friends with you?

In reality, not a biased Christian opinion, this site is a 'saving grace' for a lot of us. For those of us that are surrounded by religion and the religious, for those that are told in daily life how we are horrible people because we don't believe in magic, for those that feel alone to have somewhere to go and someone to talk to. I live in central Texas and I will tell you right now as an atheist it isn't easy and I don't know many people who don't think I am going to hell. Just to have someone on my side means the world to me. I found this site last June and I have become so much more comfortable in my own mind knowing that I am not the only one that thinks like I do. The religious go to church and they feel better being with people that agree with them. They like going somewhere they aren't thought of as idiots. We like that community feeling too. Yeah we make fun of the religious but this is our safe haven to do so. We ARE human. I can tell you for a fact that I have heard the judgments of Christians toward atheists IN church. That is no different than this site.

I sit here and get told that my state thinks it is okay to let religious people tell me I am unfit to be a mother by denying me the right to adopt so I go to my friends here on this site and yes I complain. I ask how some people have the audacity to tell me that THEIR religion deems me an unfit mother and keeps children away from good homes. You have no right to say that this site is just for making fun of people when you have no idea how much it helps people. I don't post often but I go through the site daily and I have made irreplaceable friends that I am so thankful for that I donate monthly to the site just as a way of saying thank you for being here for me.

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I know I went on a rant there about the site in general and you just mentioned the Christian thread area but it goes with the whole us complaining because we need to vent. Although I may have gone overboard, I apologize for going off but not enough that I will delete or change it because it needed to be said.

[vorlon13]

and maybe from a believers viewpoint, the change to God's Perfect Plan is doable in regards to their being an especially good follower and if God is just working on a quota scheme of some kind, someone else can get that inconvenient lung tumor. Plan is tweaked, and we're good to go.

[Crossless2.0]

It is mainly used for making fun of people of faith and pointing out every time a religious person does something bad.

It's also there for religious people to offer compelling evidence, or at least cogent arguments, to support their beliefs.

In that respect, the potential of the religious sub-forums remains untapped.

[Valyza1]

New here and confused about this.


I saw a meme today, with the question in title. This is a toughie. 

I am a person of strong faith, and want others with strong faith to chime in on this. Help!!!

You must have lived a very sheltered life to now, seeing as you've not encountered the problem of evil before. It's been worried over by theists since before christianity and not one has come up with a satisfactory answer.

In fact the only good answer came from Epicurus:

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”

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I wouldn't say my faith is relatively strong, but that isn't really necessary to answer the question.  As far as I see it, nothing can change God's Perfect Plan.  Your prayer is part of your free will, but YOUR free will is part of God's Plan.  People object  to the idea of one's will being free if God already knows what it will be, but what God KNOWS is irrelevant to freedom.  It's what God IMPOSES that restricts freedom.  And God does not impose your will from being acted upon, thus it is free.  And He doesn't need to in order for His Plan to succeed, because your will changes by itself.  

If god has a perfect, unchanging plan, then you don't have free will because your thoughts and actions were determined for you long before you even existed and you have no choice in the matter.

Freedom can't be absolute (which is I think what Sam Harris is recognizing in his writings), but it's free at the point where one identifies with the predetermined causation of choices. Freedom is a first person experience.

[Angrboda]

Some people like to think that every little thing that happens was purposely made to happen by the hand of God Himself. But that is simply not true. God is not a micromanager. He created this world with us in it and allows nature to happen as it will, and allows us to make our own choices. I know many Christians buy into this "everything happens for a reason" mentality, but that is simply not true, imho. God's plan is with the eternal result, big picture. Not with details of this life which are insignificant when put into perspective.

Or maybe it's the exact opposite? What is your "opinion" based upon other than a desire to have a consistent and likable theology? The nice thing about made up gods is that they can be anything you want them to be.

[brewer]

A few things.

First, what do you mean exactly by "God's perfect plan?"

God's plan for us the big picture, and that is that we live this life in a way that reflects love and goodness in our hearts so that we can go on to enjoy it to its fullest in the afterlife. We can choose to follow that plan or not, but that is up to us.

Some people like to think that every little thing that happens was purposely made to happen by the hand of God Himself. But that is simply not true. God is not a micromanager. He created this world with us in it and allows nature to happen as it will, and allows us to make our own choices. I know many Christians buy into this "everything happens for a reason" mentality, but that is simply not true, imho. God's plan is with the eternal result, big picture. Not with details of this life which are insignificant when put into perspective.

Second, God exists in a dimension that is outside of time. So He already knows that we will pray before we do so because He has already seen us do it. Think of it as looking at a cube - you can see all 3 dimensions at one glance. If time is a fourth dimension, imagine that God can see all of it at once, in a similar way.

So for example: a couple wants a child but is battling infertility, and they pray to God every day asking to be blessed with a child. They end up getting pregnant with a healthy baby against all odds. God answered their prayer. But God already knew ahead of time that this child would come into existence because He already knew that the parents would pray for one and that their prayers would be answered. This child didn't change anything. God already knew the parents would pray and He already knew He would answer those prayers.

bold mine

I'm really confused. First it does not micro manage or predict the future and lets nature take it's course, then in your scenario it micro manages, the future is known, and there is a predetermined outcome.  

If it already knows that a single person will pray and what will be prayed for and how the prayer will be answered (micro manage a detail of one persons life), the person has no free will. They are simply following a predetermined path.

[Divinity]

Is God's plan really perfect if he had to drown most of the fucking population?