Less than a day goes by...

[The Valkyrie]

Well, apparently he's now whining that no politician in history has been treated more unfairly:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/92...e-unfairly

Boo-fucking-hoo!

"It's not fair!  How can I be a dictator when there's still a free press and people are free to criticise me!!"

[henryp]

Plausible explanation.  Sure.  That's a low bar.  It's sort of like the Religious folks.  They see a gap in knowledge, and they can't wait to fill it with all sorts of stuff that justifies their beliefs.  You have a memo that, if given the benefit of the doubt, says “He is a good guy. I hope you can let this go." 

The fact of the matter is that whatever the truth is, it must be coherent with the facts above (we know Trump met with Comey. We know Comey didn't end the investigation. We know Trump fired Comey shortly after. Furthermore, Trump himself has himself said (amongst other things) that "the Russia thing" was part of his rationale for firing Comey.

From there to obstruction of justice to the point of impeachment is such a giant leap.

I suggest you take that matter up with someone who's actually made that claim. My personal position on this is that it has the appearance of impropriety and needs to be investigated outside of the executive branch, along with other matters.

Hmmm, my response didn't make it through the process. Anyhoo, my jist was I think the news presents things as to give the appearance of impropriety, without discussing why it might not be, or the likelihood of impropriety. Because nobody wants to read "Trump probably didn't commit treason!" when they could read "Trump commits Treason?!"

[Jackalope]

Do you even understand what "appearance of impropriety" even means? The facts not under dispute give that appearance. It doesn't require spin. Yeah, I agree some news services do so nonetheless.

[Crunchy]

wallym Wrote:
You can tell they are guessing rather than reporting the truth, by the question marks they put at the end of their headlines.  Did Trump Commit Treason!?  If the truth was he committed treason, the headline would read "Trump commits Treason."  Instead, major news outlets behave like the Star magazine with headlines like Is Batboy Brad Pitt's Secret Love Child?

It could be the truth, if they are guessing right, but guessing doesn't seem like good journalism to me.

No, they are not guessing, they are reporting the information they get as they get it. That's their job! They don't wait until the end of the trial in order to cover the trial. 
So far, what they have been reporting is true and has been confirmed by Trump himself.

No one forced trump to fire Comey, then have his staff say it wasn't Trumps idea, then have his staff say it was because he was unfair to Hillary... then have Trump go on TV and throw his own staff under the bus and say it actually was his idea and that he did it because of the investigation into Russia. No one forced him to send a threatening tweet to Comey. No one forced him to have Russian spies in the Oval office with Russian media while banning American media. No one forced him to stupidly brag about all the great intel he has and then to stupidly pass on that intel to the Russian spies. And again have his staff deny it only to later have him throw them under the bus again and confirm that he actually did do it.

So far, there is only one thing we can be certain of and it's this: In handling this Russia issue which he himself caused, Trump has proven himself to be an incompetent moron who is totally unfit for the job of President. And that's the best case scenario for Trump. Worst case is he gets hung for treason.

[henryp]

Do you even understand what "appearance of impropriety" even means?  The facts not under dispute give that appearance.  It doesn't require spin.  Yeah, I agree some news services do so nonetheless.

By controlling the context you can create the appearance of impropriety.  

The silliest example, was Trump calling for hackers to attack the United States.  I happened to be watching the the rally live on TV where Trump made a joke about maybe the hackers could find Hillary's 30,000 emails next.  It was a fairly funny off the cuff (maybe) jab.  I laughed.  Then a couple hours later, the headline was "DID TRUMP COMMIT TREASON!?"

That's fairly routine.  Hillary and Benghazi was a pretty good example of this as well.  Where all the context of how things actually work at the State Department were purposefully left out, and the right presented the story in a way that allowed uninformed people to fill in the blanks with their own bias or incorrect assumptions.

It's a good political trick.  I'm just not crazy about the press doing it, because then there's nobody at all to be trusted.

[Jackalope]

And yet, those three facts are not in dispute. Spin it any way you like, you can't get away from that.

[Aroura]

Oh come off it. If Hillary had asked another country to hack the RNC, while laughing and joking in a speach, you'd be calling for her head. Hell, I'd be upset. It isn't funny to joke about for anyone, let alone someone running for the highest office.
It's hypocritical and dishonest, to yourself and to others.

You want him and defend him because he says he's going to tear down the establishment, so stop defending his assanine comments and behavior and suck it up and admit you don't care what he says or does. He could cheat, lie and anything else, so long as he keeps saying he'll drain the swamp and make massive changes.....you'll support him. And also, anything to upset those libtards, right? Lol. Anything.

Of course he won't do what he promised because he's a liar and a con. However, admitting one has been conned is pretty difficult, I hope you get there someday.

Not a week goes by without more lies, contradictions and scandals right from his own mouth. No spin required for the headline "Trump says insert exact quote here".

[henryp]

Oh come off it. If Hillary had asked another country to hack the RNC, while laughing and joking in a speach, you'd be calling for her head. Hell, I'd be upset. It isn't funny to joke about for anyone, let alone someone running for the highest office.
It's hypocritical and dishonest, to yourself and to others.

You want him and defend him because he says he's going to tear down the establishment, so stop defending his assanine comments and behavior and suck it up and admit you don't care what he says or does. He could cheat, lie and anything else, so long as he keeps saying he'll drain the swamp and make massive changes.....you'll support him. And also, anything to upset those libtards, right? Lol. Anything.

Of course he won't do what he promised  because he's a liar and a con. However, admitting one has been conned is pretty difficult, I hope you get there someday.

Not a week goes by without more lies, contradictions and scandals right from his own mouth. No spin required for the headline "Trump says insert exact quote here".

Here's another example of the problem.  In the post you replied to, I said the Benghazi story was just political manipulation of the public.  If I think Hillary was completely faultless in Benghazi, why do you think i'd call for her head over a joke?  You create this fantasy world in your head filled with all these caricatures loosely based on reality, and think it's real, and then base your reasoning on that.  What hope is there to come to conclusions based on reality, when you ignore reality?

Also, did you watch Norm Macdonalds latest special?   At the end, he said Hitler's the best.  Couldn't believe it.  Exact quote.  Who knew he was a Nazi all these years.

---

And yet, those three facts are not in dispute.  Spin it any way you like, you can't get away from that.

Why spin it?  Why not just see what the truth is?  

I'm thinking of a number between 1 and 100.  Ny Post:  Here's why experts think the number is 28!

[Crunchy]

wallym Wrote:
In the post you replied to, I said the Benghazi story was just political manipulation of the public. 

That's a various obvious example but I will certainly give you the benefit of any doubt about your independance. 

You didn't reply to my first post so I'll rephrase. 
Is there not enough evidence already for you that Trump is incompetent? 

His handling of the Russian hack is a perfect example of how a President should not behave even if you don't believe anything he did falls to the level of an impeachable offence.
Asking the FBI director to back off was a really stupid thing to do. Firing him for it is even dumber. Inviting the Russians to the Oval office in the midst of all this is off the scale stupid and barring American Media while allowing Russian media is indescribably stupid. 
The fact that Putin now holds transcripts of a conversation that occurred in the Oval office is proof of incredible incompetence on Trump's part. There is no one else to blame for Putin being the holder of those transcripts other than Trump.

It should be obvious by now that Trump had absolutely no knowledge about health care. "nobody knew healthcare could be so complicated" Really? Coming from the guy who promised everyone he would fix it quickly and that it would be easy? It is guaranteed that many of the people who post on this forum are far more knowledgeable about health care than Trump ever was. 

It should be obvious by now that Trump had absolutely no knowledge about the tax system. A one page tax plan is a joke that even his most ardent critics did not see coming. He does not understand the first thing about the system that he is presiding over. Im sure he hired good accountants to handle his taxes but that has nothing to do with a national taxation system. 

It was very obvious prior to the election that Trump just spoke in talking points and had no idea whatsoever about the structure, priorities, and policies of government. He was a low information voter and nothing more. Now, we can see clearly that he has no idea what he is doing. The items I listed above are just scratching the surface of all the incompetent behavior coming from this guy. 

Idiots thought that "he's rich so he's smart". Idiots thought that "he's not a politician so he will be more honest than a politician" 
Historians will look back at this and try to figure out how an incompetent boob became president. Right now, the most important thing is to be honest enough to recognize the incompetent boob for what he really is. It's past time to set aside partisan politics and admit that somehow a truly incompetent fool somehow made it to the Oval office.

[henryp]

wallym Wrote:
In the post you replied to, I said the Benghazi story was just political manipulation of the public. 

That's a various obvious example but I will certainly give you the benefit of any doubt about your independance. 

You didn't reply to my first post so I'll rephrase. 
Is there not enough evidence already for you that Trump is incompetent? 

His handling of the Russian hack is a perfect example of how a President should not behave even if you don't believe anything he did falls to the level of an impeachable offence.
Asking the FBI director to back off was a really stupid thing to do. Firing him for it is even dumber. Inviting the Russians to the Oval office in the midst of all this is off the scale stupid and barring American Media while allowing Russian media is indescribably stupid. 
The fact that Putin now holds transcripts of a conversation that occurred in the Oval office is proof of incredible incompetence on Trump's part. There is no one else to blame for Putin being the holder of those transcripts other than Trump.

It should be obvious by now that Trump had absolutely no knowledge about health care. "nobody knew healthcare could be so complicated" Really? Coming from the guy who promised everyone he would fix it quickly and that it would be easy? It is guaranteed that many of the people who post on this forum are far more knowledgeable about health care than Trump ever was. 

It should be obvious by now that Trump had absolutely no knowledge about the tax system. A one page tax plan is a joke that even his most ardent critics did not see coming. He does not understand the first thing about the system that he is presiding over. Im sure he hired good accountants to handle his taxes but that has nothing to do with a national taxation system. 

It was very obvious prior to the election that Trump just spoke in talking points and had no idea whatsoever about the structure, priorities, and policies of government. He was a low information voter and nothing more. Now, we can see clearly that he has no idea what he is doing. The items I listed above are just scratching the surface of all the incompetent behavior coming from this guy. 

Idiots thought that "he's rich so he's smart". Idiots thought that "he's not a politician so he will be more honest than a politician" 
Historians will look back at this and try to figure out how an incompetent boob became president. Right now, the most important thing is to be honest enough to recognize the incompetent boob for what he really is. It's past time to set aside partisan politics and admit that somehow a truly incompetent fool somehow made it to the Oval office.

I'm certainly not independent.  But I'm not particularly swayed by things that aren't important.

Saying he asked the FBI director to 'back off' isn't exactly what we were told he said.  Saying Comey was fired specifically for it rather than a totality of his work is debatable.  The russian visit was scheduled well in advance.  But, as you say, this all points to political incompetence even if it's not illegal/nefarious.  But I don't think political competence is that important any more.  The political waters have become so absurd, it no longer matters (hence Trump being president).  The boy who cried wolf environment, where every statement is presented as some huge disqualifying atrocity, has jumped the shark.

Again, I saw the "Nobody new..." statement.  You frame it as him being surprised by how complicated it was.  In context, I'd say he's speaking to the general unwieldiness of our healthcare system.  Like "Nobody knew Football could be so popular."  You wouldn't say "Wow, he didn't know football was popular?"  vs. "Nobody envisioned that one day football would become as popular as it is now."  

His tax plan being released was definitely a joke (stupid, not haha).  I'd assume it served some political purpose in somebody's eyes.  Although, that is not evidence of him not understanding the tax system.  Not that I expect a president to write a tax plan anyway.  All that stuff is delegated to 'experts'.  But the general premise is probably a guideline to those people.  Just like I'm sure Obama had a few things he wanted included in the ACA.  But he was pretty badly informed on the nature of the plan, because he's a lawyer, not a writer of health care plans.

But you're right about not knowing how to govern the way things have been governed.  But we fairly unanimously hate the way our government works.  So it's not a big loss.  I wonder sometimes how changing from The West Wing, which depicted our leaders as wise altruistic people, to Veep and House of Cards, where they are dopes and slimeballs, more akin to sleezy/idiotic middle management types.  I think that may tie into why the DNC hack was so damaging.  Seeing Donna Brazile working for CNN and passing questions to Hillary, and then getting caught, and then being put in charge of the DNC had to be a worm in the ear of the voters.  It gave off a DNC vs. Voters vibe.  So when you look on the other side, and see the RNC trying to squash Trump, and him winning, I think people liked that.  

Anyway, for me, I'm interested in 2 things:
1) Actual results 
2) Actual broken laws.

Everything else is just noise.  Now, I'd rather have someone who is clearly competent in charge.  I liked Mitt Romney.  That's my brand of Republicanism.  Smart as hell, competent, and practical.  But I'd rather role the dice for 4 years with Trump than have Ted Cruz or Hillary.  We're going to have endless more chances to have people exactly like Hillary for pretty much forever.  And hopefully, never have a Ted Cruz type.  

So in 2020 (assuming no impeachment), there will be jobs reports.  There will be GDP growth.  We will see our foreign policy situation.  We'll have some health care in place.  Immigration results will be available.   That's what I'm really watching for now.  I keep an eye on the stuff going on now out of curiosity, but I signed up for 4 years (again, assuming no impeachment) and that's what I'll judge him on.  Not some soundbite or the spin on an unconfirmed memo.