Sin and the Blame Game

[Fake Messiah]

Don't you think the bigger problem about eating forbidden fruit is that God lied. Woman said, "Of course, we may eat it; it is only the fruit from the tree of the center of the Garden that we may not eat. God says we must not eat it or touch it or we will die." And the Serpent says, "That's a lie! You will not die." So the question becomes, Did Adam and Eve die? No, they did not die. Now if we take God's comment literally, they should have died. And yet Gen. 5:5 says, "All the days that Adam lived were 930 years and he died." And Adam and Eve should not be punished for following the truth. The only reason they are punished is that God has more powerful magic..

So if god lies he is not perfect and if he is not perfect he can't be god.

But yeah if god wanted humans to behave certain way (like let's say saints) he should have made them that way and you can't say it's free will because are saints then lacking free will or were they made to choose "well"? And also in many places in the Bible it is actually said that everything is predetermined and there is no free will and what people will do and choose is already predetermined, like:

Ephesians 1:4-5 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will

Romans 8:29-30 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Ephesians 2:10, We are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them;

Psalms 139:16 Your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

and so on...

[Amarok]

Don't you think the bigger problem about eating forbidden fruit is that God lied. Woman said, "Of course, we may eat it; it is only the fruit from the tree of the center of the Garden that we may not eat. God says we must not eat it or touch it or we will die." And the Serpent says, "That's a lie! You will not die." So the question becomes, Did Adam and Eve die? No, they did not die. Now if we take God's comment literally, they should have died. And yet Gen. 5:5 says, "All the days that Adam lived were 930 years and he died." And Adam and Eve should not be punished for following the truth. The only reason they are punished is that God has more powerful magic..

So if god lies he is not perfect and if he is not perfect he can't be god.

But yeah if god wanted humans to behave certain way (like let's say saints) he should have made them that way and you can't say it's free will because are saints then lacking free will or were they made to choose "well"? And also in many places in the Bible it is actually said that everything is predetermined and there is no free will and what people will do and choose is already predetermined, like:

Ephesians 1:4-5 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will

Romans 8:29-30 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Ephesians 2:10, We are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them;

Psalms 139:16 Your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

and so on...

Theists will make the excuse it was not physical death but spiritual death separation for god BLAH BLAH BLAH ...

[Fake Messiah]

But that's not what the book says. It says they will die. Nothing is said about a spiritual death. I mean what the heck is spiritual death anyway?

But yeah they constantly find excuses and invent parts of the Bible that don't exist and who can blame them since both Jesus and Paul called upon passages from the Bible's OT that don't exist or simply misinterpreted them. I mean just look what they do to Jesus and the fact that he obviously did not fulfill many of the most prominent prophecies.
Whole Second Corning concept is nothing more than a Christian ruse to conceal some blatant shortcomings on the part of Jesus.
Those numerous predictions that he failed to complete during his sojourn on planet earth will, they allege, be fulfilled when he returns a second time. In other words, what Jesus didn't complete during his first appearance will be accomplished the second time around. For utter deception this ploy has no equal. Using that subterfuge, anyone could claim to be the messiah. All they need do is allege that whatever they did not accomplish while on earth this time would be carried out when they return at some indeterminate time in the future.

[Amarok]

But that's not what the book says. It says they will die. Nothing is said about a spiritual death. I mean what the heck is spiritual death anyway?

But yeah they constantly find excuses and invent parts of the Bible that don't exist and who can blame them since both Jesus and Paul called upon passages from the Bible's OT that don't exist or simply misinterpreted them. I mean just look what they do to Jesus and the fact that he obviously did not fulfill many of the most prominent prophecies.
Whole Second Corning concept is nothing more than a Christian ruse to conceal some blatant shortcomings on the part of Jesus.
Those numerous predictions that he failed to complete during his sojourn on planet earth will, they allege, be fulfilled when he returns a second time. In other words, what Jesus didn't complete during his first appearance will be accomplished the second time around. For utter deception this ploy has no equal. Using that subterfuge, anyone could claim to be the messiah. All they need do is allege that whatever they did not accomplish while on earth this time would be carried out when they return at some indeterminate time in the future.

Oh they will try and say the book says the wage for sin is death and Adam and Eve sinned and thus earned the wage and some and some such theological her derp

[Fake Messiah]

They earned wage for sin which was death? But weren't they already mortal? Bible describes they were eating, so what would happen if they stopped eating?

[Mister Agenda]

I don't know about theists in general, but it seems I know it better than you. Adam and Eve hid after they ate the fruit, gaining the knowledge of good and evil, not before. The whole point of the story is that they were innocent before they ate the fruit, not even ashamed of being naked. Once they ate it they covered themselves and when they heard God pretending to look for them, they panicked and hid because now they knew what they had done was wrong.

If you had been paying attention to what I've stated in the past on this subject, then you'd know that Adam and Eve didn't eat literal fruit...

Whatever they did, the scene where they try to hide from God happened after it.

---

Omniscience doesn't mean that God makes things happen, but rather that he knows what will happen.  He didn't cause Adam to disobey him, but Adam made that decision himself.  Knowing that mankind would choose to turn against him, God already planned to redeem us when he created us.  Why he wanted to do it that way, I don't know.  That's his prerogative.  That's why the bible states that God's plan of salvation was eternal.  I believe that we each have it in us to accept or reject that gift.  His plan was that anyone who wanted to be with him would be and those who didn't would not be.  There was no "setting us up", but rather a basis to allow us to make that choice.

Yeah, God's omniscience would only make him responsible for what happened if he set up the initial conditions knowing what would happen....

[Cyberman]

If a doctor prescribed you medicine and told you that if you didn't take the medicine you'd die. Guess what you do? You'd take the medicine, which shows you're capable of obedience.

On the other hand, if a doctor prescribed something and warned me not to take it or else I'd die in a thousand years, guess what? I'd probably take it.

[Amarok]

If a doctor prescribed you medicine and told you that if you didn't take the medicine you'd die. Guess what you do? You'd take the medicine, which shows you're capable of obedience.

No id ask what I'm dying of.? what the medicines for? and if there are any side effects
 like any other medicine I take . And why doctors encourage you to ask about stuff like that. As for the scenario actually it would be one doctor saying it will kill you (god) .And someone else telling you it won't (the snake) .And lastly Obedience is not a virtue if it's unquestioning .

[Drich]

But again...why should there be any wrath the flawed creation needs escape from in the first place when God himself is responsible for the flaw?

Because sin in this instance is not a flaw but an opportunity. to produce the fruit that is in your heart. meaning here sin yields or shows you who you truly are away from the known glory of God... Meaning do you feel entitled to your sin, or do you repent of it even when there is no known threat to have you do so?

 I don't see how Christ is god's atonement.

 It's centered around the idea that if one man Adam can bring sin into the world then one man Christ if He lives a perfect life before God, can offer Himself the perfect sin sacrifice.

Because again the wage of sin is death if we sin only once in our life time, our flesh and spirit are condemned to die. to die in the flesh and to die in the spirit/hell. When Christ died in the flesh He was also separated from God/died to God spiritually. Then upon His resurrection was reborn or born again, showing that God the son had power over death.

Now that Jesus has the power of life and death He vows to resurrect everyone to be judged. Those in whom He has paid our spiritual sin debt will move on to eternal life and those He has not, will be destroyed in Hell.

God is expecting US to atone for HIS actions.

No one forces you to sin. All God did was allow us to be aware of sin and be accountable for it.

 We are the ones being judged for behaving exactly the way we were created to behave.  

not all of "us."
We do not all have the same 'Father.'

I would never expect my 2-year-old to apologize for behaving like a 2-year-old,

because you don't want to hold you kid accountable for his actions doesnot mean you will escape accountability for yourself.

or, rather, for NOT behaving like a 20-year-old.

Then put a 0 behind the 2 in this analogy and make the 2 year old a 20 year old. make the cookie your car and instead of eating it he wrecks it even after you said do not drive it!!

 What does he have to be sorry about?

 with the 20 year old disobeying and wrecking the family car. with the 2 year old disobeying and eating cookies.

If I don't want him eating cookies, I don't leave him with cookies, because he is not capable of resisting.

seriously?? never had a kid hunt down and find the cookie stash?

Yet God loves us anyway.

And why shouldn't he?

Because we do not love or respect Him enough to acknoweledge what has been done for us.

 If god is to be annoyed with anyone, it should be with himself, for not doing it right in the first place.

what would the right thing be?
just put everyone in heaven untested?
He already did that once with the angels remember... 1/3 of them rebelled and left.
So why not do it this way this time? it cleaner and we get to live out exactly who we are.

 Why on earth are we deserving of his punishment?  

because you've sinned.

Why are we being judged for actions we have no control over?  

So, just following orders frow,campus?
If that excuse does not work for us in the world then why would it work for God who knows better? A God who has provided you with an opportunity to live apart from the law?

Or do you not understand the term?

It means 'we' live not being judged by the law. (kinda how you want to without any effort.) We do so simply by acknowledging what God has done to provide us with this opportunity.)

---

Don't you think the bigger problem about eating forbidden fruit is that God lied. Woman said, "Of course, we may eat it; it is only the fruit from the tree of the center of the Garden that we may not eat. God says we must not eat it or touch it or we will die." And the Serpent says, "That's a lie! You will not die." So the question becomes, Did Adam and Eve die? No, they did not die.

In fact they did die. they were immortal beings who's being could stand to be in the full glory of God and not be destroyed.. What ever Adam and eve were while in the garden they ceased being or rather died.

Now if we take God's comment literally, they should have died. And yet Gen. 5:5 says, "All the days that Adam lived were 930 years and he died." And Adam and Eve should not be punished for following the truth. The only reason they are punished is that God has more powerful magic..

total of 930 years on this earth. meaning the clock does not include garden time.

So if god lies he is not perfect and if he is not perfect he can't be god.

and if you just can see the truth because you elect to follow a corrupt narrative?

But yeah if god wanted humans to behave certain way (like let's say saints) he should have made them that way and you can't say it's free will because are saints then lacking free will or were they made to choose "well"? And also in many places in the Bible it is actually said that everything is predetermined and there is no free will and what people will do and choose is already predetermined, like:

And if God does not want people to live like saints, just repent of sin when it happens, He should be responsible for that as well no?

Oh, but look he already beat us to the punch!

Ephesians 1:4-5 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will

Meaning we are only perfect because Christ is perfect. It does not say we are perfect apart from Christ.

Romans 8:29-30 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Ephesians 2:10, We are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them;

Psalms 139:16 Your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

and so on...

Amen!

So what the problem is?

Is it because you feel like you are not apart of the fold? because you currently doubt God you can not be one of the predestined?

Did Thomas/doubting Thomas always believe? was He not one of the chosen? Did Paul/Saul of Tarsus always believe? was He not apart of the chosen?

who are you to say whether or not you have been chosen? Being chosen has nothing to do with what you believe or even want.

[Neo-Scholastic]

Everyone wants to start in Genesis. Personally, I think that is a mistake. The Divine Plan is eternal. We should start reading at John 1:1 then reflect on the story of our original parents in light of the whole counsel of Holy Scripture. Philosophically speaking, it would be logically impossible for God to make a perfect creation since there can be only one God and only God can be perfect. So the question shifts from why there is evil to whether or not this is the best of all possible worlds. While one can certainly point to all the pain and suffering in the world, one can also point to all the joys and blessings in it. It seems to me that this is where the role of Christ as Redeemer steps in. The realities of sin and corruption are overcome by the wonder of mercy. If we did not fail, then we could not know the joy of forgiveness. As Joseph said to his repentant brothers "You meant it for evil, but God turned it into good."