Origin of Matter

[RedSox]

Hi all, this is my first time posting. I'm a Christian and I want to discuss what is the origin of matter?  Wouldn't the origin have to be something (1) natural, (2) nothingness/null/void, (3) supernatural, or (4) paranormal?  One might argue "we don't know" which I can appreciate, but it would have to fall in one of those four categories, right?  Thank you in advance for your responses to get the conversation rolling!

[brewer]

I'll start with a Hello and let the more sciencie players take over.

[Minimalist]

No.

https://www.thoughtco.com/definition-of-...les-604565

In science, matter is the term for any type of material. Matter is anything that has mass and takes up space. At a minimum, matter requires at least one subatomic particle, although most matter consists of atoms.

Nothing "supernatural" or "paranormal" about it.

[RedSox]

Minimalist, I don't think I was clear enough. I was asking if the origin of matter must be one of the four categories I listed (it doesn't need to include all of the four categories). If supernatural and paranormal are not options, then natural and nothingness/null/void would be possibilities. A better way to ask might be is there any other potential origin of matter outside a natural or nothingness/null/void origin (if supernatural and paranormal are excluded)? So, the origin of matter must be natural OR supernatural OR nothingness/null/void OR paranormal. Right? No other possibilities outside of those four (or those 2 if we exclude supernatural and paranormal).

[downbeatplumb]

Minimalist, I don't think I was clear enough.  I was asking if the origin of matter must be one of the four categories I listed (it doesn't need to include all of the four categories).  If supernatural and paranormal are not options, then natural and nothingness/null/void would be possibilities.  A better way to ask might be is there any other potential origin of matter outside a natural or nothingness/null/void origin (if supernatural and paranormal are excluded)?  So, the origin of matter must be natural OR supernatural OR nothingness/null/void OR paranormal.  Right?  No other possibilities outside of those four (or those 2 if we exclude supernatural and paranormal).

There is no choice there is only "natural". How this occurred we don't know but we do know that whatever it was must have been natural.

Here is an extract from a Stephen Hawking lecture on the subject.

The beginning of the universe would be governed by the laws of science. The picture Jim Hartle and I developed of the spontaneous quantum creation of the universe would be a bit like the formation of bubbles of steam in boiling water. 

The idea is that the most probable histories of the universe would be like the surfaces of the bubbles. Many small bubbles would appear, and then disappear again. These would correspond to mini universes that would expand but would collapse again while still of microscopic size. They are possible alternative universes but they are not of much interest since they do not last long enough to develop galaxies and stars, let alone intelligent life. A few of the little bubbles, however, grow to a certain size at which they are safe from recollapse. They will continue to expand at an ever increasing rate, and will form the bubbles we see. They will correspond to universes that would start off expanding at an ever increasing rate. This is called inflation, like the way prices go up every year. 

We have made tremendous progress in cosmology in the last hundred years. The General Theory of Relativity and the discovery of the expansion of the universe shattered the old picture of an ever existing and ever lasting universe. Instead, general relativity predicted that the universe, and time itself, would begin in the big bang. It also predicted that time would come to an end in black holes. The discovery of the cosmic microwave background and observations of black holes support these conclusions. This is a profound change in our picture of the universe and of reality itself. Although the General Theory of Relativity predicted that the universe must have come from a period of high curvature in the past, it could not predict how the universe would emerge from the big bang. Thus general relativity on its own cannot answer the central question in cosmology: Why is the universe the way it is? However, if general relativity is combined with quantum theory, it may be possible to predict how the universe would start. It would initially expand at an ever increasing rate.

During this so called inflationary period, the marriage of the two theories predicted that small fluctuations would develop and lead to the formation of galaxies, stars, and all the other structure in the universe. This is confirmed by observations of small non uniformities in the cosmic microwave background, with exactly the predicted properties. So it seems we are on our way to understanding the origin of the universe, though much more work will be needed. A new window on the very early universe will be opened when we can detect gravitational waves by accurately measuring the distances between space craft. Gravitational waves propagate freely to us from earliest times, unimpeded by any intervening material. By contrast, light is scattered many times by free electrons. The scattering goes on until the electrons freeze out, after 300,000 years.  

http://www.hawking.org.uk/the-origin-of-...verse.html

[Minimalist]

No.  You can't shoehorn your god into this.

[vorlon13]

When viewed from the proper perspective, that is, from an endless eternity in an infinite void, on average both in time and in space, then there is no matter.

[RedSox]

downbeatplumb
There is no choice there is only "natural". How this occurred we don't know but we do know that whatever it was must have been natural.

Downbeat, thank you for the Hawking excerpts. 
 
Wouldn’t matter being the origin violate the theory that matter can neither be created nor destroyed in a closed system… and only transferred across open systems?  Am I incorrectly understanding that theory... I may very well be.
 
Additionally, if matter is the origin of matter then what is the origin of the earliest matter that ever existed… would it be infinite?  Not talking about the universe or planets here, just matter itself.  Thanks.

[downbeatplumb]

downbeatplumb
There is no choice there is only "natural". How this occurred we don't know but we do know that whatever it was must have been natural.

Downbeat, thank you for the Hawking excerpts. 
 
Wouldn’t matter being the origin violate the theory that matter can neither be created nor destroyed in a closed system… and only transferred across open systems?  Am I incorrectly understanding that theory... I may very well be.
 
Additionally, if matter is the origin of matter then what is the origin of the earliest matter that ever existed… would it be infinite?  Not talking about the universe or planets here, just matter itself.  Thanks.

What I said was that whatever the cause it would be natural.

No supernatural or paranormal thing has ever been found to actually be real when properly investigated.

Feel free to prove me wrong, but I require properly scientifically verified evidence not some vague argument.

[LadyForCamus]

Minimalist, I don't think I was clear enough. I was asking if the origin of matter must be one of the four categories I listed (it doesn't need to include all of the four categories). If supernatural and paranormal are not options, then natural and nothingness/null/void would be possibilities. A better way to ask might be is there any other potential origin of matter outside a natural or nothingness/null/void origin (if supernatural and paranormal are excluded)? So, the origin of matter must be natural OR supernatural OR nothingness/null/void OR paranormal. Right? No other possibilities outside of those four (or those 2 if we exclude supernatural and paranormal).

Can you first describe what you mean by "supernatural", and "paranormal"?