Christianity and Suicide

[Inkfeather132]

I give you credit for at least admitting that Christians are not being persecuted in this country. Most Christians I know refuse to admit that. And for the record, I get my information about Christians from: My time as a Christian, my Christian friends, and local Christian pastors on the radio. I have never watched those TV pastors you mention because anyone with half a brain knows they are full of shit.
And the reason it's ok for us to judge you, and not for you to judge us, is because we don't believe in a book that tells us not to judge. When you judge, you're being hypocritical. When we do it, it's just judging because we don't see anything wrong with it (or I don't at least).

 Who says we can't judge, it all depends on what we are judging about a person and sometimes it depends on the individual Christian and what is going on with them. I know plenty of Christians who do not believe we in the US are not being persecuted and I know some who do, those who do forget what the Christians in the Middle East go through.
I have a question for you, why do you refer to yourself as a former Christian when you do not know  God and as far as you are concerned never did?

GC

I was a Christian because I was part of the religion. I know a lot of you like to say "Christianity isn't a religion, it's a relationship with god!" Well, you are wrong. A relationship with god is a relationship with god, and Christianity is a religion. You don't have to "know god" at all to be a part of the religion.
And when I was a part of it, I would have told anyone who asked that I did indeed know god. With the same conviction that you say the same now, that's how I was back then. Only recently did I realize that who I knew was myself and that god didn't exist. So you could say I did know god, but my knowledge was incorrect.

[Jesster]

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Since I don't believe in this god, I can't logically accept that anyone has such a relationship.

You told me you were a former Christian, how is it that you could have been a Christian and not known God. How did you manage to carry on a relationship with Him and not know Him. This is something I just can't get my mind around.

I agree that people can change their beliefs, I've changed mine within my relationship with God and it has strengthened me, especially in my knowledge of Him. I've come to a greater understanding of God and why He has saved me. 
Tell me how can someone know another then say they were not real and that they do not believe they ever existed?
In the short time we've been communicating I know you are a real person and I could never deny your existence. If I did people would tell me I was crazy. I do hear that here quite a lot because of my undying belief in God. Strange, if I denied the one I'm called crazy and if I do not deny the latter I'm crazy.

I never said I knew any god. I believed in a god. In order for this god to be known to me, he'd have to at least meet me in the middle where I was waiting for over a decade. It's easy to disbelieve in someone who never makes themselves present for you in any way.

Okay you believed in something you didn't know and called yourself a Christian, just how does that work, not being sarcastic just trying to understand. You also told me you studied the Bible, so how is it you missed that one must come contrite to God, surrendering all of yourself to Him. This is the only way He can make you into the person He promises. The Bible teaches that God has come to you completely and awaits you to surrender yourself to Him, this is how we come to know who He is.

Again, I can't logically accept that anyone knows this god. If the evidence proved otherwise to me, I'd have to change my mind. Consistently telling me that you have your own personal evidence is not going to change my mind unless you have some way of sharing that evidence with me. This is why I told you to pray instead, because this isn't going to do anything for me unless your god also cares to reach out to me.

I am praying for you, why, because it's God not me who will convince you , you're on my mind and in my prayers day and night. I'm convinced God will speak to you. I can tell you of experiences but with the great doubt you carry at this time they probably wouldn't help at this point in time. The evidence you need is in the Bible and you can have it, ask the Holy Spirit to reveal it to you, this has to be done with an open heart which you seem to have closed off. If you happen to ask you must remember that spiritual things will happen in God's timing not yours, you may have to have a bit of patients.

I'm not sure how many times you want to repeat this bit to me, but I'm going to stop responding to it now.

I'll take this two ways, you are either losing interest or God has already started working on your heart and you're trying to avoid Him, just remember God has all the time on His side. This is not a threat from me or God, neither of this would do such a thing. I hope you do not quit responding but if you feel you must I'll still be praying.

Seems to me your beliefs were not knowing but was in thinking God is real, your comments lead me to believe you decided that God's not real, so how can you have a relationship with something that's not real?  This is what I was referring to when I said it's strange how one can say they believed (having knowledge) and then they did not.

No, I never said that. Disbelief is not the same as belief in the negative view. I can't honestly say that there absolutely is no god. I just have no reason to believe in one, either.

Okay I see what you're saying about yourself. So tell me what reason do you need, if you have done the Bible study you said you did (I'm not doubting) then how could you not see reasons to become a Christian?

I also never made a decision to disbelieve; I stopped believing because I realized that the evidence just wasn't there no matter how hard I tried to find it. It's not a choice; it's intellectual honesty.

You'll have to excuse me here because it is a choice, the intellectual honesty is an excuse. You choose to accept or reject God, I'm not going to beat around the bush on this point, I've been there and I know what you're doing to avoid God.
 

You seem to be hinting now that I'm somehow close-minded here, but that's not true at all.

I'm not saying you're close-minded, but I do think you are avoiding God. I've taught classes and a youth group and I've heard a lot of different reasons. By watching the lives of people I have been able to see through many avoiding excuses. Remember I'm trying to be honest with you, not to would be dishonest.

I'll happily accept something real showing up in my life. So far this specific thing has not, but it's certainly welcome here if it does exist.

Studying the Bible as you said you have then you know that you will have to give up your old life and put on the new one God has for you and this is what most people find as their reason to avoid God, is this yours also.

As I said above, I was waiting half-way with a big welcome sign hung up for all to see for over a decade. Now I'm sitting back inside without the sign, but the door is still wide open and cookies are in the oven. Why else would I be bothering with this conversation with you?

And as I said above you have to come to God with a contrite heart, not waving a sign meet me over here. You are expecting God to change the way He deals with people to satisfy your self appointed needs. I can tell you that surrendering to God can be scary but once you do and see what God has for you it's worth everything you give-up. I've asked God this very thing (the above underlined), I've been asking God why am I bothering with you, I've asked Him why He wants me to and if He doesn't to let me know so I can move on. Like I've said there's nothing I can do but witness and teach, it is God's job to convince you of your need for Him. I will point out your errors and/or misunderstanding of how God works and the way the Bible teaches. You must treat this as a spiritual thing that will at times result in physical things. Living in a relationship with God is spiritual and God meets our spiritual needs in this relationship, He also will help in physical needs but the reality is spiritual living. 

You can believe what you want about me, though. If you'd like to start writing me off, I can easily move on and make this simpler for both of us. Up to you, but I'll still be waiting here.

I believe about you what I see, I see a person worth my time and energy and will continue with this as long as God doesn't direct me in another direction, why would I give up on you when God hasn't. Why do I believe He hasn't because He hasn't pointed me in another direction. I've been privileged to have a relationship with God, the One who created everything chose me, and in this relationship I've come to know Him and to a small extent how He works. Before you answer this post please take some time to think about what I've said. Please remember I'm not trying to upset you, you do not deserve such treatment, I'm being honest because I care, something God has instilled in me.
Have a great weekend,

GC

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Avoiding? GC, please don't make up details about me to make things more convenient for you. I've told you many times now that if something is true, I want nothing more than to know that truth. I'm avoiding nothing, especially when it comes to something as important as this. I've also told you how much effort I've put into my previous religious practices for just over a decade. If you don't want to believe my claims of my commitments then I don't have any reason to communicate with you any further. This isn't helping my perception of you at all right now. All I ever want is an honest conversation, and I don't feel like I'm getting that right now. Continue your prayers as you see fit and I'll keep waiting for something to happen, but I think I'm about done here now.

[mordant]

Belief is simply your judgment of the preponderance of evidence for or against a thing's existence or truthfulness. If you have good reason to think a thing exists or is truthful then you afford belief to it, even in the presence of some uncertainty. Otherwise you don't. That's your belief position.

Your knowledge position is something else. It is the data you are in possession of. It can and often does vary independently from your belief position.

Belief: I believe in god's existence.
Knowledge: I know that god exits.

Most of us unbelievers don't make a knowledge claim about god, but see no good reason to afford belief to the concept. That is agnostic atheism.

Why don't we make a knowledge claim? Because, inherently, we can't. And neither can a believer. Gods are invisible and intangible. Their existence is asserted, and not testable. We cannot make a knowledge claim for OR against the god hypothesis because it's not constructed in such a way as to be testable and falsifiable and therefore, provable.

But we can examine the preponderance of evidence and say that there's no good and sufficient reason to afford belief.

This distinction is not pedantic or mere semantics. In the immediate discussion above, I see Godscreated and others shifting back and forth between their belief and knowledge claims. "I believe, therefore I know" is not a a valid claim. All claims that derive from it are therefore not valid, either. The most you can say is "I have decided to believe and have practiced it for so long that it feels right to me and I have given myself over to confirmation bias and agency inference to the point that it is subjectively similar to a real relationship with a real being."

As an aside, this confusion between belief and knowledge claims often results in caricature of the actual position that atheists are taking. The vast majority of us don't "claim" that there "is" no god. That would be a much easier strawman to knock down. We don't see evidence to substantiate the claim of god's existence and so do not believe it because we do not believe the unsubstantiated. That is much more problematic for the theist position.

Similarly, to the point of this thread, there's a tendency to talk about "suicide" like it's a single topic. It's not. There's both rational and irrational suicide. They have completely different motivations. The former is simply choosing not to have more new experiences for good and sufficient personal reasons, with full consideration of other options and of how the decision effects other interested parties. The latter is generally emotion based and centered in despair or other acute pain, and mostly disregards or discounts how it effects others. The latter is by far the most common form of suicide but we tend to talk about it as if it were the only form or motivation for the act. Irrational suicide is impulsive and ill-considered; rational suicide is the opposite. This is problematic for authoritarian types who just want a black and white rule to follow wherever possible; they try to characterize what they're trying to control as a simple black and white issue.

[Inkfeather132]

Belief is simply your judgment of the preponderance of evidence for or against a thing's existence or truthfulness. If you have good reason to think a thing exists or is truthful then you afford belief to it, even in the presence of some uncertainty. Otherwise you don't. That's your belief position.

Your knowledge position is something else. It is the data you are in possession of. It can and often does vary independently from your belief position.

Belief: I believe in god's existence.
Knowledge: I know that god exits.

Most of us unbelievers don't make a knowledge claim about god, but see no good reason to afford belief to the concept. That is agnostic atheism.

Why don't we make a knowledge claim? Because, inherently, we can't. And neither can a believer. Gods are invisible and intangible. Their existence is asserted, and not testable. We cannot make a knowledge claim for OR against the god hypothesis because it's not constructed in such a way as to be testable and falsifiable and therefore, provable.

But we can examine the preponderance of evidence and say that there's no good and sufficient reason to afford belief.

This distinction is not pedantic or mere semantics. In the immediate discussion above, I see Godscreated and others shifting back and forth between their belief and knowledge claims. "I believe, therefore I know" is not a a valid claim. All claims that derive from it are therefore not valid, either. The most you can say is "I have decided to believe and have practiced it for so long that it feels right to me and I have given myself over to confirmation bias and agency inference to the point that it is subjectively similar to a real relationship with a real being."

As an aside, this confusion between belief and knowledge claims often results in caricature of the actual position that atheists are taking. The vast majority of us don't "claim" that there "is" no god. That would be a much easier strawman to knock down. We don't see evidence to substantiate the claim of god's existence and so do not believe it because we do not believe the unsubstantiated. That is much more problematic for the theist position.

Similarly, to the point of this thread, there's a tendency to talk about "suicide" like it's a single topic. It's not. There's both rational and irrational suicide. They have completely different motivations. The former is simply choosing not to have more new experiences for good and sufficient personal reasons, with full consideration of other options and of how the decision effects other interested parties. The latter is generally emotion based and centered in despair or other acute pain, and mostly disregards or discounts how it effects others. The latter is by far the most common form of suicide but we tend to talk about it as if it were the only form or motivation for the act. Irrational suicide is impulsive and ill-considered; rational suicide is the opposite. This is problematic for authoritarian types who just want a black and white rule to follow wherever possible; they try to characterize what they're trying to control as a simple black and white issue.

I understand and agree with what you are saying. Sometimes I do use the two interchangeably (leftover thinking from being a theist my whole life I guess), and I will try to be careful not to do that in the future  But GC (and many other theists) do equate belief with knowledge. The point of my post to him was that I "knew" god the same way that he "knows" god now. In other words, not at all.

[JackRussell]

Knowledge and belief confuse so many people.

There is no absolute knowledge, it is on a gradient with current evidence, and that's fine.

Belief without any evidence is faith. Anybody could accept any position on that basis. Therefore it's useless.

The only certain knowledge is the kind that peeps like GC claim, but it is un-evidenced and worthless.

If the burden of proof is refuted by A/S/K, one can justifiably conclude the theist is just talking to himself.

The odd thing to notice is that most theists god's also echo positions that they hold true for themselves. It's easy to say I agree with god when god also god agrees with my view too.

internal dialogue, happily externalised.

[mordant]

I understand and agree with what you are saying. Sometimes I do use the two interchangeably (leftover thinking from being a theist my whole life I guess), and I will try to be careful not to do that in the future   But GC (and many other theists) do equate belief with knowledge. The point of my post to him was that I "knew" god the same way that he "knows" god now. In other words, not at all.

Well it's not like belief and knowledge don't overlap and influence each other, and normally, in everyday casual conversation, even I use the terms somewhat interchangeably / sloppily at times. Semantic shortcuts are appropriate outside of a debate.

Within a debate however we have to be more careful or we'll start talking past each other. Exact definitions matter in a debate / discussion context.

I have encountered a minority of other unbelievers who just say, "fuck it, I'm tired of arguing semantics, there's nothing wrong with saying 'there is no god' and so I'm saying it." I understand the frustration because some theists simply refuse to use any labels or definitions or usages other than what they are accustomed to, because their chosen understanding and usage seem less threatened within that framework. Also, there's no FUNCTIONAL difference between believing there's only a 0.00001% chance that there could be some kind of deity out there, and knowing that deity isn't there. You don't order your life differently one way vs the other. You don't make different decisions one way vs the other. In fact, this even makes theist conflation of the terms somewhat understandable.

Still, it's a distinction I'll take the effort to make in a debate, if for no other reason than that theists so often accuse atheists of being "arrogant" by making an unsupportable knowledge claim that there is no god. This is so bass-ackwards it's not even funny. The truly humble epistemology is the one that says, "I don't know everything and haven't been everywhere and everywhen so I can't stake a knowledge claim on this. However, I have looked at all evidence and the vast preponderance of it is against the proposed deity, therefore, I have no reason to afford belief to it and in fact am incapable of affording belief to it. Not because I'm an atheist, but because I'm a person who does not afford belief to the unsubstantiated. My atheism is just one side effect of my requiring substantiation for my beliefs." Whereas it's the theist who is "arrogant" enough to assert, without evidence, that he "knows" his god exists and in fact he has a "personal relationship" with this deity. To know all about the inherently unknowable -- what could be MORE arrogant than that?

This cuts theists to the quick ... they really don't like the implication that there's no valid basis for their beliefs. Understandably. I didn't like it either, but eventually had to admit it was the true situation. But until I came to that realization, I, too, fought it tooth and nail. I had tremendous ego investment in my "personal knowledge" of my god.

[Godscreated]

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You told me you were a former Christian, how is it that you could have been a Christian and not known God. How did you manage to carry on a relationship with Him and not know Him. This is something I just can't get my mind around.



Okay you believed in something you didn't know and called yourself a Christian, just how does that work, not being sarcastic just trying to understand. You also told me you studied the Bible, so how is it you missed that one must come contrite to God, surrendering all of yourself to Him. This is the only way He can make you into the person He promises. The Bible teaches that God has come to you completely and awaits you to surrender yourself to Him, this is how we come to know who He is.


I am praying for you, why, because it's God not me who will convince you , you're on my mind and in my prayers day and night. I'm convinced God will speak to you. I can tell you of experiences but with the great doubt you carry at this time they probably wouldn't help at this point in time. The evidence you need is in the Bible and you can have it, ask the Holy Spirit to reveal it to you, this has to be done with an open heart which you seem to have closed off. If you happen to ask you must remember that spiritual things will happen in God's timing not yours, you may have to have a bit of patients.


I'll take this two ways, you are either losing interest or God has already started working on your heart and you're trying to avoid Him, just remember God has all the time on His side. This is not a threat from me or God, neither of this would do such a thing. I hope you do not quit responding but if you feel you must I'll still be praying.



Okay I see what you're saying about yourself. So tell me what reason do you need, if you have done the Bible study you said you did (I'm not doubting) then how could you not see reasons to become a Christian?


You'll have to excuse me here because it is a choice, the intellectual honesty is an excuse. You choose to accept or reject God, I'm not going to beat around the bush on this point, I've been there and I know what you're doing to avoid God.
 

I'm not saying you're close-minded, but I do think you are avoiding God. I've taught classes and a youth group and I've heard a lot of different reasons. By watching the lives of people I have been able to see through many avoiding excuses. Remember I'm trying to be honest with you, not to would be dishonest.


Studying the Bible as you said you have then you know that you will have to give up your old life and put on the new one God has for you and this is what most people find as their reason to avoid God, is this yours also.


And as I said above you have to come to God with a contrite heart, not waving a sign meet me over here. You are expecting God to change the way He deals with people to satisfy your self appointed needs. I can tell you that surrendering to God can be scary but once you do and see what God has for you it's worth everything you give-up. I've asked God this very thing (the above underlined), I've been asking God why am I bothering with you, I've asked Him why He wants me to and if He doesn't to let me know so I can move on. Like I've said there's nothing I can do but witness and teach, it is God's job to convince you of your need for Him. I will point out your errors and/or misunderstanding of how God works and the way the Bible teaches. You must treat this as a spiritual thing that will at times result in physical things. Living in a relationship with God is spiritual and God meets our spiritual needs in this relationship, He also will help in physical needs but the reality is spiritual living. 


I believe about you what I see, I see a person worth my time and energy and will continue with this as long as God doesn't direct me in another direction, why would I give up on you when God hasn't. Why do I believe He hasn't because He hasn't pointed me in another direction. I've been privileged to have a relationship with God, the One who created everything chose me, and in this relationship I've come to know Him and to a small extent how He works. Before you answer this post please take some time to think about what I've said. Please remember I'm not trying to upset you, you do not deserve such treatment, I'm being honest because I care, something God has instilled in me.
Have a great weekend,

GC

---

Avoiding? GC, please don't make up details about me to make things more convenient for you. I've told you many times now that if something is true, I want nothing more than to know that truth. I'm avoiding nothing, especially when it comes to something as important as this. I've also told you how much effort I've put into my previous religious practices for just over a decade. If you don't want to believe my claims of my commitments then I don't have any reason to communicate with you any further. This isn't helping my perception of you at all right now. All I ever want is an honest conversation, and I don't feel like I'm getting that right now. Continue your prayers as you see fit and I'll keep waiting for something to happen, but I think I'm about done here now.

 I told you that I was not attacking you in any way and I'm sorry you took it that way, I never said I didn't believe what you said, I do. It's just that your view of what Christianity is about and what I know it to be because I'm deeply involved in it. Again I'm sorry for offending you it was never my intention. What was my intention to show you what I know as the truth of Christianity. I was and still am hoping you will answer my previous post to you.

Enjoy your weekend,

GC

[Jesster]

Avoiding? GC, please don't make up details about me to make things more convenient for you. I've told you many times now that if something is true, I want nothing more than to know that truth. I'm avoiding nothing, especially when it comes to something as important as this. I've also told you how much effort I've put into my previous religious practices for just over a decade. If you don't want to believe my claims of my commitments then I don't have any reason to communicate with you any further. This isn't helping my perception of you at all right now. All I ever want is an honest conversation, and I don't feel like I'm getting that right now. Continue your prayers as you see fit and I'll keep waiting for something to happen, but I think I'm about done here now.

 I told you that I was not attacking you in any way and I'm sorry you took it that way, I never said I didn't believe what you said, I do. It's just that your view of what Christianity is about and what I know it to be because I'm deeply involved in it. Again I'm sorry for offending you it was never my intention. What was my intention to show you what I know as the truth of Christianity. I was and still am hoping you will answer my previous post to you.

Enjoy your weekend,

GC

I'm not offended by anything you said. I also never said that anything you did was an attack. I'm just disappointed that you've gone with your chosen route. You made assumptions about me that aren't actually true and then based your arguments around them. This is an example of a straw man argument, and I am not going to play that specific game with yet another theist here. I've done that far too many times here already. If you have some truth to show me, then do so. Just don't try to make some false example of me in the process. I've given you plenty of chances here, and I'm just exhausted by trying to keep my stances clear to you.

[Godscreated]

---

 Who says we can't judge, it all depends on what we are judging about a person and sometimes it depends on the individual Christian and what is going on with them. I know plenty of Christians who do not believe we in the US are not being persecuted and I know some who do, those who do forget what the Christians in the Middle East go through.
I have a question for you, why do you refer to yourself as a former Christian when you do not know  God and as far as you are concerned never did?

GC

---

I was a Christian because I was part of the religion. I know a lot of you like to say "Christianity isn't a religion, it's a relationship with god!" Well, you are wrong. A relationship with god is a relationship with god, and Christianity is a religion. You don't have to "know god" at all to be a part of the religion.
And when I was a part of it, I would have told anyone who asked that I did indeed know god. With the same conviction that you say the same now, that's how I was back then. Only recently did I realize that who I knew was myself and that god didn't exist. So you could say I did know god, but my knowledge was incorrect.

 I can agree with your first sentence to a point. Your second sentence needs some defining, religion is the practice of religious and formal things. These things are found in the worship services of Christian churches and they make up the whole of all other religions. practicing these things in no way makes one a Christian it's impossible and the evidence is in the Bible. Paul and the other writers of the NT state plainly that no amount of works can save you. If you do not trust in Jesus as your savior and come to live in a relationship with Him you are lost as last years Easter egg. The NT writings of Paul tell us that we can come to know God regardless of what you might believe and this knowing is knowledge. Just because you didn't experience it doesn't mean you are correct in any statements you make about Christianity. I know of no one who has the knowledge of God that has ever left Christianity. The Christians got their name early own from the secular world because of their deep devout following of Christ, ie. living in a relationship with Him.
 In your 5th sentence you are correct, there are many in the Christian church who do not know Christ and they are hell bound unless they change and accept Christ as their savior. In your 6th sentence you probably did say you knew God, but as it turns out you did not know Him or you would not have rejected Him because of somethings you thought were true. You never and I mean never were convinced you knew God as well as I claim and it's obvious because I will never reject Him. Living in a relationship of knowledge with Him is better than anything you can imagine. I will never deny Him for any reason, why because it's an impossible thing for me to do, I know He is real.
Your last sentence is nothing more than your lack of living for Christ in a relationship with Him, the knowledge you claim to have come by is your desire to break away from religion not a Godly relationship. 

GC

[Inkfeather132]

I was a Christian because I was part of the religion. I know a lot of you like to say "Christianity isn't a religion, it's a relationship with god!" Well, you are wrong. A relationship with god is a relationship with god, and Christianity is a religion. You don't have to "know god" at all to be a part of the religion.
And when I was a part of it, I would have told anyone who asked that I did indeed know god. With the same conviction that you say the same now, that's how I was back then. Only recently did I realize that who I knew was myself and that god didn't exist. So you could say I did know god, but my knowledge was incorrect.

 I can agree with your first sentence to a point. Your second sentence needs some defining, religion is the practice of religious and formal things. These things are found in the worship services of Christian churches and they make up the whole of all other religions. practicing these things in no way makes one a Christian it's impossible and the evidence is in the Bible. Paul and the other writers of the NT state plainly that no amount of works can save you. If you do not trust in Jesus as your savior and come to live in a relationship with Him you are lost as last years Easter egg. The NT writings of Paul tell us that we can come to know God regardless of what you might believe and this knowing is knowledge. Just because you didn't experience it doesn't mean you are correct in any statements you make about Christianity. I know of no one who has the knowledge of God that has ever left Christianity. The Christians got their name early own from the secular world because of their deep devout following of Christ, ie. living in a relationship with Him.
 In your 5th sentence you are correct, there are many in the Christian church who do not know Christ and they are hell bound unless they change and accept Christ as their savior. In your 6th sentence you probably did say you knew God, but as it turns out you did not know Him or you would not have rejected Him because of somethings you thought were true. You never and I mean never were convinced you knew God as well as I claim and it's obvious because I will never reject Him. Living in a relationship of knowledge with Him is better than anything you can imagine. I will never deny Him for any reason, why because it's an impossible thing for me to do, I know He is real.
Your last sentence is nothing more than your lack of living for Christ in a relationship with Him, the knowledge you claim to have come by is your desire to break away from religion not a Godly relationship. 

GC

Look, this whole argument is pointless since you can't provide any evidence that god exists. Once you have provided the evidence, then we can talk about whether you can be a Christian and not know him. But until you have shown he even exists to know, there is literally no point to this.