(July 12, 2017 at 11:08 am)Jesster Wrote:

(July 12, 2017 at 3:44 am)Godscreated Wrote:  I do not see this as a category or a label, what I'm asking is this, according to the Bible can a person be a Christian without knowing Christ. This is more like a partial book analysis, just looking for an opinion on what the scriptures say about being a Christian. There will be no judgement from me on this I'm curious about what you believe the bible says on this point.

GC

Again, you're fishing for an answer from me where there is none. How can I believe in the knowledge of a god if I don't believe in the god? The bible doesn't mean anything to me at this point. I don't keep one handy and I'm not about to go fishing one out now either. It's a waste of time for me because I don't believe in any of it. It's a far better use of my time while dealing with religious people to talk to them about what they believe. I have no beliefs here, so why don't you tell me yours instead so we can actually accomplish something?

This is the best I can give you here, GC. This isn't about judgement to me. It's about following a line of logic.

 Okay, I want ask anymore, but I was honestly curious.
 Now I do not believe a person can be a Christian and not know Christ. I use the word know in it's real sense. Belief in something is a knowledge of something, even if it is very limited knowledge. This is a must as I read the scriptures, Paul told us that we could know God and live in a relationship with Him. Now to know God and live in a relationship with Him has to mean one understands somethings about God to be true and His existence would be the first thing. So it baffles me as to how people can say they were former Christians, I can't understand how someone can know God and then say they do not believe in His existence.

GC

(July 13, 2017 at 1:08 am)Godscreated Wrote:

(July 12, 2017 at 11:08 am)Jesster Wrote: Again, you're fishing for an answer from me where there is none. How can I believe in the knowledge of a god if I don't believe in the god? The bible doesn't mean anything to me at this point. I don't keep one handy and I'm not about to go fishing one out now either. It's a waste of time for me because I don't believe in any of it. It's a far better use of my time while dealing with religious people to talk to them about what they believe. I have no beliefs here, so why don't you tell me yours instead so we can actually accomplish something?

This is the best I can give you here, GC. This isn't about judgement to me. It's about following a line of logic.

 Okay, I want ask anymore, but I was honestly curious.
 Now I do not believe a person can be a Christian and not know Christ. I use the word know in it's real sense. Belief in something is a knowledge of something, even if it is very limited knowledge. This is a must as I read the scriptures, Paul told us that we could know God and live in a relationship with Him. Now to know God and live in a relationship with Him has to mean one understands somethings about God to be true and His existence would be the first thing. So it baffles me as to how people can say they were former Christians, I can't understand how someone can know God and then say they do not believe in His existence.

GC

Oh, I didn't know you were using knowledge in that sense. Usually I classify knowledge as a subset of belief instead of the other way around like you are here. I'm not going to get into tearing down those definitions, since that's not going to get us anywhere. What's more important is that you're saying here that belief is what is necessary for Christianity. Okay, I'll work with what you're using there. I believed and now I don't. People can change their beliefs all the time. What's so difficult to understand about that? It's called being open-minded and willing to challenge your beliefs based on new information. I kept exploring the world around me until my beliefs, even if they were strong beliefs at some point, did not hold up against what I kept experiencing. I kept wanting to believe, but had fewer reasons to do so every day. I had to do the honest thing at some point and admit that I could not possibly cling to my old beliefs any longer.

(July 13, 2017 at 1:24 am)Jesster Wrote:

(July 13, 2017 at 1:08 am)Godscreated Wrote:  Okay, I want ask anymore, but I was honestly curious.
 Now I do not believe a person can be a Christian and not know Christ. I use the word know in it's real sense. Belief in something is a knowledge of something, even if it is very limited knowledge. This is a must as I read the scriptures, Paul told us that we could know God and live in a relationship with Him. Now to know God and live in a relationship with Him has to mean one understands somethings about God to be true and His existence would be the first thing. So it baffles me as to how people can say they were former Christians, I can't understand how someone can know God and then say they do not believe in His existence.

GC

Oh, I didn't know you were using knowledge in that sense. Usually I classify knowledge as a subset of belief instead of the other way around like you are here. I'm not going to get into tearing down those definitions, since that's not going to get us anywhere. What's more important is that you're saying here that belief is what is necessary for Christianity.

Yes, it is paramount. How else would one live in a relationship with God? People do not live in relationships without knowing the other one in that relationship.

Jesster Wrote: Okay, I'll work with what you're using there. I believed and now I don't. People can change their beliefs all the time. What's so difficult to understand about that? It's called being open-minded and willing to challenge your beliefs based on new information.

I agree that people can change their beliefs, I've changed mine within my relationship with God and it has strengthened me, especially in my knowledge of Him. I've come to a greater understanding of God and why He has saved me. 
Tell me how can someone know another then say they were not real and that they do not believe they ever existed?
In the short time we've been communicating I know you are a real person and I could never deny your existence. If I did people would tell me I was crazy. I do hear that here quite a lot because of my undying belief in God. Strange, if I denied the one I'm called crazy and if I do not deny the latter I'm crazy.

Jesster Wrote:I kept exploring the world around me until my beliefs, even if they were strong beliefs at some point, did not hold up against what I kept experiencing. I kept wanting to believe, but had fewer reasons to do so every day. I had to do the honest thing at some point and admit that I could not possibly cling to my old beliefs any longer.

Seems to me your beliefs were not knowing but was in thinking God is real, your comments lead me to believe you decided that God's not real, so how can you have a relationship with something that's not real?  This is what I was referring to when I said it's strange how one can say they believed (having knowledge) and then they did not.[/quote]

(July 13, 2017 at 2:49 am)Godscreated Wrote: Yes, it is paramount. How else would one live in a relationship with God? People do not live in relationships without knowing the other one in that relationship.

Since I don't believe in this god, I can't logically accept that anyone has such a relationship.

(July 13, 2017 at 2:49 am)Godscreated Wrote: I agree that people can change their beliefs, I've changed mine within my relationship with God and it has strengthened me, especially in my knowledge of Him. I've come to a greater understanding of God and why He has saved me. 
Tell me how can someone know another then say they were not real and that they do not believe they ever existed?
In the short time we've been communicating I know you are a real person and I could never deny your existence. If I did people would tell me I was crazy. I do hear that here quite a lot because of my undying belief in God. Strange, if I denied the one I'm called crazy and if I do not deny the latter I'm crazy.

I never said I knew any god. I believed in a god. In order for this god to be known to me, he'd have to at least meet me in the middle where I was waiting for over a decade. It's easy to disbelieve in someone who never makes themselves present for you in any way.

Again, I can't logically accept that anyone knows this god. If the evidence proved otherwise to me, I'd have to change my mind. Consistently telling me that you have your own personal evidence is not going to change my mind unless you have some way of sharing that evidence with me. This is why I told you to pray instead, because this isn't going to do anything for me unless your god also cares to reach out to me.

I'm not sure how many times you want to repeat this bit to me, but I'm going to stop responding to it now.

(July 13, 2017 at 2:49 am)Godscreated Wrote: Seems to me your beliefs were not knowing but was in thinking God is real, your comments lead me to believe you decided that God's not real, so how can you have a relationship with something that's not real?  This is what I was referring to when I said it's strange how one can say they believed (having knowledge) and then they did not.

No, I never said that. Disbelief is not the same as belief in the negative view. I can't honestly say that there absolutely is no god. I just have no reason to believe in one, either. I also never made a decision to disbelieve; I stopped believing because I realized that the evidence just wasn't there no matter how hard I tried to find it. It's not a choice; it's intellectual honesty.

You seem to be hinting now that I'm somehow close-minded here, but that's not true at all. I'll happily accept something real showing up in my life. So far this specific thing has not, but it's certainly welcome here if it does exist. As I said above, I was waiting half-way with a big welcome sign hung up for all to see for over a decade. Now I'm sitting back inside without the sign, but the door is still wide open and cookies are in the oven. Why else would I be bothering with this conversation with you?

You can believe what you want about me, though. If you'd like to start writing me off, I can easily move on and make this simpler for both of us. Up to you, but I'll still be waiting here.

(July 13, 2017 at 1:08 am)Godscreated Wrote:

(July 12, 2017 at 11:08 am)Jesster Wrote: Again, you're fishing for an answer from me where there is none. How can I believe in the knowledge of a god if I don't believe in the god? The bible doesn't mean anything to me at this point. I don't keep one handy and I'm not about to go fishing one out now either. It's a waste of time for me because I don't believe in any of it. It's a far better use of my time while dealing with religious people to talk to them about what they believe. I have no beliefs here, so why don't you tell me yours instead so we can actually accomplish something?

This is the best I can give you here, GC. This isn't about judgement to me. It's about following a line of logic.

 Okay, I want ask anymore, but I was honestly curious.
 Now I do not believe a person can be a Christian and not know Christ. I use the word know in it's real sense. Belief in something is a knowledge of something, even if it is very limited knowledge. This is a must as I read the scriptures, Paul told us that we could know God and live in a relationship with Him. Now to know God and live in a relationship with Him has to mean one understands somethings about God to be true and His existence would be the first thing. So it baffles me as to how people can say they were former Christians, I can't understand how someone can know God and then say they do not believe in His existence.

GC

Because, especially in America, calling yourself christian has little or nothing to do with the bible.  It's more like a club you join to have your ignorance and prejudices justified, group sympathy for being "persecuted", feeling more secure with a daddy figure looking over you, and to have a large group of people to look down on. And you don't have to give up anything but critical thinking!

But it equally baffles me how someone can claim to know god. I would think such knowledge would affect changes in behaviour for the better, but that's rarely seen.

Thanks for replying GC, I'll get you a reply soon.

(July 13, 2017 at 8:41 am)Harry Nevis Wrote:

(July 13, 2017 at 1:08 am)Godscreated Wrote:  Okay, I want ask anymore, but I was honestly curious.
 Now I do not believe a person can be a Christian and not know Christ. I use the word know in it's real sense. Belief in something is a knowledge of something, even if it is very limited knowledge. This is a must as I read the scriptures, Paul told us that we could know God and live in a relationship with Him. Now to know God and live in a relationship with Him has to mean one understands somethings about God to be true and His existence would be the first thing. So it baffles me as to how people can say they were former Christians, I can't understand how someone can know God and then say they do not believe in His existence.

GC

Because, especially in America, calling yourself christian has little or nothing to do with the bible.  It's more like a club you join to have your ignorance and prejudices justified, group sympathy for being "persecuted", feeling more secure with a daddy figure looking over you,  and to have a large group of people to look down on. And you don't have to give up anything but critical thinking!

But it equally baffles me how someone can claim to know god. I would think such knowledge would affect changes in behaviour for the better, but that's rarely seen.

 How would you know, the Bible is our instruction manual on how we should conduct ourselves in a relationship with God. For the ones like yourself it's a life line to eternity. You should try and live the life of a Christian before you criticize it. We are being attacked in this country but we are far from being persecuted. We live in a relationship with God and He does look out for us, guiding us through a spiritual life that can only be obtained through Christ. We do have critical thinking in our lives just because you disagree with us only means you lack a knowledge we have. You probably get all your info about Christians from the TV preachers and you must watch those that have wealth and good times at heart, you shouldn't let your fellow atheist know you're watching TV preachers they'll make fun of you, just as I am. To know God is the only way to grow in a relationship with Him. Change, you wouldn't wanted to meet me on a dark street if I had not come to God through Christ in salvation. You've known so many Christians before they were saved to make that judgement. You will criticize a Christian for judging yet it's just fine for you to do, that's called a double standard.

GC 

GC

(July 13, 2017 at 3:17 am)Jesster Wrote:

(July 13, 2017 at 2:49 am)Godscreated Wrote: Yes, it is paramount. How else would one live in a relationship with God? People do not live in relationships without knowing the other one in that relationship.

Since I don't believe in this god, I can't logically accept that anyone has such a relationship.

You told me you were a former Christian, how is it that you could have been a Christian and not known God. How did you manage to carry on a relationship with Him and not know Him. This is something I just can't get my mind around.

(July 13, 2017 at 2:49 am)Godscreated Wrote: I agree that people can change their beliefs, I've changed mine within my relationship with God and it has strengthened me, especially in my knowledge of Him. I've come to a greater understanding of God and why He has saved me. 
Tell me how can someone know another then say they were not real and that they do not believe they ever existed?
In the short time we've been communicating I know you are a real person and I could never deny your existence. If I did people would tell me I was crazy. I do hear that here quite a lot because of my undying belief in God. Strange, if I denied the one I'm called crazy and if I do not deny the latter I'm crazy.

Jesster Wrote:I never said I knew any god. I believed in a god. In order for this god to be known to me, he'd have to at least meet me in the middle where I was waiting for over a decade. It's easy to disbelieve in someone who never makes themselves present for you in any way.

Okay you believed in something you didn't know and called yourself a Christian, just how does that work, not being sarcastic just trying to understand. You also told me you studied the Bible, so how is it you missed that one must come contrite to God, surrendering all of yourself to Him. This is the only way He can make you into the person He promises. The Bible teaches that God has come to you completely and awaits you to surrender yourself to Him, this is how we come to know who He is.

Jesster Wrote:Again, I can't logically accept that anyone knows this god. If the evidence proved otherwise to me, I'd have to change my mind. Consistently telling me that you have your own personal evidence is not going to change my mind unless you have some way of sharing that evidence with me. This is why I told you to pray instead, because this isn't going to do anything for me unless your god also cares to reach out to me.

I am praying for you, why, because it's God not me who will convince you , you're on my mind and in my prayers day and night. I'm convinced God will speak to you. I can tell you of experiences but with the great doubt you carry at this time they probably wouldn't help at this point in time. The evidence you need is in the Bible and you can have it, ask the Holy Spirit to reveal it to you, this has to be done with an open heart which you seem to have closed off. If you happen to ask you must remember that spiritual things will happen in God's timing not yours, you may have to have a bit of patients.

Jesster Wrote:I'm not sure how many times you want to repeat this bit to me, but I'm going to stop responding to it now.

I'll take this two ways, you are either losing interest or God has already started working on your heart and you're trying to avoid Him, just remember God has all the time on His side. This is not a threat from me or God, neither of this would do such a thing. I hope you do not quit responding but if you feel you must I'll still be praying.

(July 13, 2017 at 2:49 am)Godscreated Wrote: Seems to me your beliefs were not knowing but was in thinking God is real, your comments lead me to believe you decided that God's not real, so how can you have a relationship with something that's not real?  This is what I was referring to when I said it's strange how one can say they believed (having knowledge) and then they did not.

Jesster Wrote:No, I never said that. Disbelief is not the same as belief in the negative view. I can't honestly say that there absolutely is no god. I just have no reason to believe in one, either.

Okay I see what you're saying about yourself. So tell me what reason do you need, if you have done the Bible study you said you did (I'm not doubting) then how could you not see reasons to become a Christian?

Jesster Wrote:I also never made a decision to disbelieve; I stopped believing because I realized that the evidence just wasn't there no matter how hard I tried to find it. It's not a choice; it's intellectual honesty.

You'll have to excuse me here because it is a choice, the intellectual honesty is an excuse. You choose to accept or reject God, I'm not going to beat around the bush on this point, I've been there and I know what you're doing to avoid God.
 

Jesster Wrote:You seem to be hinting now that I'm somehow close-minded here, but that's not true at all.

I'm not saying you're close-minded, but I do think you are avoiding God. I've taught classes and a youth group and I've heard a lot of different reasons. By watching the lives of people I have been able to see through many avoiding excuses. Remember I'm trying to be honest with you, not to would be dishonest.

Jesster Wrote:I'll happily accept something real showing up in my life. So far this specific thing has not, but it's certainly welcome here if it does exist.

Studying the Bible as you said you have then you know that you will have to give up your old life and put on the new one God has for you and this is what most people find as their reason to avoid God, is this yours also.

Jesster Wrote:As I said above, I was waiting half-way with a big welcome sign hung up for all to see for over a decade. Now I'm sitting back inside without the sign, but the door is still wide open and cookies are in the oven. Why else would I be bothering with this conversation with you?

And as I said above you have to come to God with a contrite heart, not waving a sign meet me over here. You are expecting God to change the way He deals with people to satisfy your self appointed needs. I can tell you that surrendering to God can be scary but once you do and see what God has for you it's worth everything you give-up. I've asked God this very thing (the above underlined), I've been asking God why am I bothering with you, I've asked Him why He wants me to and if He doesn't to let me know so I can move on. Like I've said there's nothing I can do but witness and teach, it is God's job to convince you of your need for Him. I will point out your errors and/or misunderstanding of how God works and the way the Bible teaches. You must treat this as a spiritual thing that will at times result in physical things. Living in a relationship with God is spiritual and God meets our spiritual needs in this relationship, He also will help in physical needs but the reality is spiritual living. 

Jesster Wrote:You can believe what you want about me, though. If you'd like to start writing me off, I can easily move on and make this simpler for both of us. Up to you, but I'll still be waiting here.

I believe about you what I see, I see a person worth my time and energy and will continue with this as long as God doesn't direct me in another direction, why would I give up on you when God hasn't. Why do I believe He hasn't because He hasn't pointed me in another direction. I've been privileged to have a relationship with God, the One who created everything chose me, and in this relationship I've come to know Him and to a small extent how He works. Before you answer this post please take some time to think about what I've said. Please remember I'm not trying to upset you, you do not deserve such treatment, I'm being honest because I care, something God has instilled in me.
Have a great weekend,

GC


[/quote]

(July 14, 2017 at 9:53 pm)Godscreated Wrote:

(July 13, 2017 at 8:41 am)Harry Nevis Wrote: Because, especially in America, calling yourself christian has little or nothing to do with the bible.  It's more like a club you join to have your ignorance and prejudices justified, group sympathy for being "persecuted", feeling more secure with a daddy figure looking over you,  and to have a large group of people to look down on. And you don't have to give up anything but critical thinking!

But it equally baffles me how someone can claim to know god. I would think such knowledge would affect changes in behaviour for the better, but that's rarely seen.

 How would you know, the Bible is our instruction manual on how we should conduct ourselves in a relationship with God. For the ones like yourself it's a life line to eternity. You should try and live the life of a Christian before you criticize it. We are being attacked in this country but we are far from being persecuted. We live in a relationship with God and He does look out for us, guiding us through a spiritual life that can only be obtained through Christ. We do have critical thinking in our lives just because you disagree with us only means you lack a knowledge we have. You probably get all your info about Christians from the TV preachers and you must watch those that have wealth and good times at heart, you shouldn't let your fellow atheist know you're watching TV preachers they'll make fun of you, just as I am. To know God is the only way to grow in a relationship with Him. Change, you wouldn't wanted to meet me on a dark street if I had not come to God through Christ in salvation. You've known so many Christians before they were saved to make that judgement. You will criticize a Christian for judging yet it's just fine for you to do, that's called a double standard.

GC 

GC

I give you credit for at least admitting that Christians are not being persecuted in this country. Most Christians I know refuse to admit that. And for the record, I get my information about Christians from: My time as a Christian, my Christian friends, and local Christian pastors on the radio. I have never watched those TV pastors you mention because anyone with half a brain knows they are full of shit.
And the reason it's ok for us to judge you, and not for you to judge us, is because we don't believe in a book that tells us not to judge. When you judge, you're being hypocritical. When we do it, it's just judging because we don't see anything wrong with it (or I don't at least).

(July 14, 2017 at 11:57 pm)Inkfeather132 Wrote:

(July 14, 2017 at 9:53 pm)Godscreated Wrote:  How would you know, the Bible is our instruction manual on how we should conduct ourselves in a relationship with God. For the ones like yourself it's a life line to eternity. You should try and live the life of a Christian before you criticize it. We are being attacked in this country but we are far from being persecuted. We live in a relationship with God and He does look out for us, guiding us through a spiritual life that can only be obtained through Christ. We do have critical thinking in our lives just because you disagree with us only means you lack a knowledge we have. You probably get all your info about Christians from the TV preachers and you must watch those that have wealth and good times at heart, you shouldn't let your fellow atheist know you're watching TV preachers they'll make fun of you, just as I am. To know God is the only way to grow in a relationship with Him. Change, you wouldn't wanted to meet me on a dark street if I had not come to God through Christ in salvation. You've known so many Christians before they were saved to make that judgement. You will criticize a Christian for judging yet it's just fine for you to do, that's called a double standard.

GC 

I give you credit for at least admitting that Christians are not being persecuted in this country. Most Christians I know refuse to admit that. And for the record, I get my information about Christians from: My time as a Christian, my Christian friends, and local Christian pastors on the radio. I have never watched those TV pastors you mention because anyone with half a brain knows they are full of shit.
And the reason it's ok for us to judge you, and not for you to judge us, is because we don't believe in a book that tells us not to judge. When you judge, you're being hypocritical. When we do it, it's just judging because we don't see anything wrong with it (or I don't at least).

 Who says we can't judge, it all depends on what we are judging about a person and sometimes it depends on the individual Christian and what is going on with them. I know plenty of Christians who do not believe we in the US are not being persecuted and I know some who do, those who do forget what the Christians in the Middle East go through.
I have a question for you, why do you refer to yourself as a former Christian when you do not know  God and as far as you are concerned never did?

GC