Considering atheism [Currently Christian]

[Minimalist]

Agreed, if it's beyond the ability of science to test or verify, it's utterly irrelevant and no one can pretend they know anything about it because the only mechanism which we know of to go about finding out things is unable to be utilized. It's when people pretend to know it exists, know its attributes, and yet can't say HOW they know this, that we've got problems. Unfortunately that's exactly how everyone behaves when it comes to that type of unknown woo.

Why is it irrelevant if science is unable to test or verify it?

Because then it isn't real, you blithering idiot.

Just like your fucking god.

[JackRussell]

Why is it irrelevant if science is unable to test or verify it?

Because then it isn't real, you blithering idiot.

Just like your fucking god.

How else could we possibly explore it? Our pre-frontal lobes are too small small and our adrenaline glands cause too much excitement. It's evolutionary excitement baby. We are clever apes and science is the only way we can reign in the irrationality we are all susceptible to.

[pocaracas]

The natural world that science probes is reality. Anything off limits to science is not real.

I have to disagree with the bolded part above.

It is possible that there is something off limits to science, that actually may exist. But since there is no way to test and verify it, there is no warrant to believe it is real.

The non testable and non verifiable are indistinguishable from non existence, but they still might exist.

Sorry, I used science as a broad concept - the potential science that knows all, not the present day science.

If we're talking about something completely impossible to test or verify, regardless of the scientific ability to probe reality, then how does anyone have any information about that thing?

[JackRussell]

But science can test supernatural involvement. Even the Templeton study on intercessory prayer rejected that, and then they certainly had a pro-religious bias.

[mordant]

But science can test supernatural involvement. Even the Templeton study on intercessory prayer rejected that, and then they certainly had a pro-religious bias.

Science cannot test anything that's not part of the natural world (= supernatural). If something's supernatural it's irrelevant to discussion, knowledge claims or decision making of any sort.

What science CAN test is the claimed results of certain activities prescribed by supposedly supernaturally originated beliefs or holy books. If "prayer changes things", as the saying goes, then those "changes" should be measurable. Alas, they are not.

[Astonished]

But science can test supernatural involvement. Even the Templeton study on intercessory prayer rejected that, and then they certainly had a pro-religious bias.

Science cannot test anything that's not part of the natural world (= supernatural). If something's supernatural it's irrelevant to discussion, knowledge claims or decision making of any sort.

What science CAN test is the claimed results of certain activities prescribed by supposedly supernaturally originated beliefs or holy books. If "prayer changes things", as the saying goes, then those "changes" should be measurable. Alas, they are not.

Except when they prove how much extra stress religious belief puts on the patients when they know they're being prayed for. So much for it not making them welcome death and a blissful afterlife. Almost like they don't actually really believe that even though they say they do...

[JackRussell]

Science cannot test anything that's not part of the natural world (= supernatural). If something's supernatural it's irrelevant to discussion, knowledge claims or decision making of any sort.

What science CAN test is the claimed results of certain activities prescribed by supposedly supernaturally originated beliefs or holy books. If "prayer changes things", as the saying goes, then those "changes" should be measurable. Alas, they are not.

Except when they prove how much extra stress religious belief puts on the patients when they know they're being prayed for. So much for it not making them welcome death and a blissful afterlife. Almost like they don't actually really believe that even though they say they do...

I agree.

I would say everything makes some kind of sense when one realises we are just primates.

[mordant]

Science cannot test anything that's not part of the natural world (= supernatural). If something's supernatural it's irrelevant to discussion, knowledge claims or decision making of any sort.

What science CAN test is the claimed results of certain activities prescribed by supposedly supernaturally originated beliefs or holy books. If "prayer changes things", as the saying goes, then those "changes" should be measurable. Alas, they are not.

Except when they prove how much extra stress religious belief puts on the patients when they know they're being prayed for. So much for it not making them welcome death and a blissful afterlife. Almost like they don't actually really believe that even though they say they do...

I'm talking about the desired results not being demonstrated. Of course there are effects -- it sets unrealistic expectations, promotes passivity, and as you point out, puts not-so-subtle pressure on the person being prayed FOR because if prayer doesn't work then it is never god's fault, it is YOUR fault somehow. You have a secret sin, or insufficient faith, or quit praying too soon, or with impure motives -- or something of that nature. In the circles I used to move in, we didn't usually come right out and say it, but the feeling was that "real" Christians just don't have huge personal problems or tragedies.

It's a terrible, miserable, rotten, no-good system of thought. Enslaves people and torments them to the extent they take it seriously.

[vorlon13]

I've fucked Christian men in the ass, Christian men have fucked me in the ass, I have given Christian men blow jobs, and Christian men have given me blow jobs . . .

As long as they repent before getting hit by a truck, they’re okay. Otherwise… damnation and hellfire for those poor saps.

after a night with me, most agree an eternity of infinite torment is not too high a price to pay . . .