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I don't understand pantheism
#11
RE: I don't understand pantheism
(July 23, 2017 at 9:24 am)Alex K Wrote:
(July 22, 2017 at 2:03 pm)Die Atheistin Wrote: Panteism claims that the Universe itself is God. Does that mean that the Universe has a consciousness?

You are part of the universe, and you have consciousness, so therefore the universe has consciousness.

No, you cannot equate one part as being the totality of the entire thing. 

One atom does not constitute the entire universe. We do certainly observe consciousness in the universe yes, but that does not make the entire universe conscious. That is like confusing one neon tetra fish in your tropical fish tank as being the entire fish tank.

Otherwise a hurricane thinks too, and we know hurricanes do not think or have a human like brain. We are merely a temporary blip. This is simply a different version of projecting human qualities on non human things.

We don't need to replace old woo with new woo.
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#12
RE: I don't understand pantheism
(July 23, 2017 at 9:24 am)Alex K Wrote:
(July 22, 2017 at 2:03 pm)Die Atheistin Wrote: Panteism claims that the Universe itself is God. Does that mean that the Universe has a consciousness?

You are part of the universe, and you have consciousness, so therefore the universe has consciousness.


The question was, 'Does...the Universe have a consciousness?'.  Clearly, it has a whole lot of consiousnesses, but I think the query was more at, 'Is the Universe conscious of itself as a Universe?'

Boru
‘Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.’ Ralph Waldo Emerson
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#13
RE: I don't understand pantheism
Pantheism means that gays and women are god too. That is why it never caught on. Not enough dichotomy.
God thinks it's fun to confuse primates. Larsen's God!






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#14
RE: I don't understand pantheism
It can be iffy because you have pantheist you are pragmatist and will assert that it is just a conflation that people just so happened to give god powers akin to the cosmos. All pantheism is for the most part is animism taken to its inevitable extreme. It shows a strong characteristic trait though that pantheist now happen to be into all sorts of woo and semantical relabelling.

To be fair even the monotheistic religions of today do it as well. The oldest notions of gods we have are vengeful human sky-people who have NO bearing whatsoever in form to the Abrahamic religions who make their deity some sort of floating cosmic consciousness who comes off as an abusive drunkard father after experiencing trauma in the military. They give the universe precedence for their existence and also assign agency to the world just not a conflation like pantheists.

I lump them all into the same boat and chuck em back into the river. Let another theism float up that doesn't uses semantics as its argument.
Ut supra, ita inferius
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#15
RE: I don't understand pantheism
(July 23, 2017 at 9:35 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:
(July 23, 2017 at 9:24 am)Alex K Wrote: You are part of the universe, and you have consciousness, so therefore the universe has consciousness.


The question was, 'Does...the Universe have a consciousness?'.  Clearly, it has a whole lot of consiousnesses, but I think the query was more at, 'Is the Universe conscious of itself as a Universe?'

Boru

In that case, do I have consciousness, because not all parts of me do, and I am not sure whether what I am consciouss of as myself is really anything close to that. And I am not being entirely facetious...
The fool hath said in his heart, There is a God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psalm 14, KJV revised edition

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#16
RE: I don't understand pantheism
I guess there's a small possibility that the universe has a consciousness. But I'm not gonna place any bets on it anytime soon.
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#17
RE: I don't understand pantheism
(July 23, 2017 at 9:12 am)Brian37 Wrote: The universe is not a giant brain and is not structured like a human brain so it cannot think like a human brain.

If it were some sort of neural network, though, it would have to somehow be interconnected.  The only "wiring" it appears to have is starlight.

Which also means that it would think sloooooowly -- over 4 years for us to get a data packet from the neuron at Proxima Centauri, 4.2 light years away.
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#18
RE: I don't understand pantheism
@OP Q 

Some pantheists believe that, but not all.  

@Alex.....some nueroscientists would say no, you do not have consciousness, you do not even have a you.  Wink

The reason that the inference you used doesn't work has nothing to do with that, though. It's because it doesn't speak to the point of contention (all fallacies are a form of non-sequitur). Use "cold" instead. You have a cold. Does this mean that the human race has a cold? No. Does it mean that the universe has a cold? No.

Whereas, in your case - ignoring what I said above, it does speak to the point of contention. Your finger isn't conscious, but your brain is. Does your finger have a conscious, no. Do you? Yes. "You" being a referent to a discrete system. To make it work in the case of the universe, you would first have to consider the universe a discrete system, something that may contain you, but ultimately not -be- you. You would be like a virus, causing a cold....but apart from your presence, does the universe, as a discrete system, possess it's -own- consciousness? The answer to that is - not that we know of, and further, there's no explanation for how it could have one, even hypothetically. If it did, it would be unrecognizable to us -as- a consciousness, in any case.
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#19
RE: I don't understand pantheism
(July 26, 2017 at 12:53 am)Gearbreak Wrote: I guess there's a small possibility that the universe has a consciousness. But I'm not gonna place any bets on it anytime soon.

Um no, no chance at all. If you are to agree with the likes of Hawking, "A God is not required", then why would the universe itself need to be a giant cognition itself? 

Yes there is cognition in the universe, IE life on earth, but again, that cannot bet treated the same because biological life is not the collective universe. Atoms in non life are not structured the same way as carbon based life. No reason at all to even consider a giant cognition knowing this. 

"So you're saying there's a chance?"

Ok sure, if ifs and buts were candy and nuts, I "might" fart a full sized Lamborghini out of my butt. The idea that the universe collectively is conscious is superfluous and just like the old God claims of antiquity causes excess baggage and would also suffer the problem with infinite regress on top of that.

There are lots of steps between a sub atomic particle, to an atom, to a molecule, to an organ, to a neuron, and the universe outside of evolution does not look the same, the atom structures outside evolution do not function the same way. Consciousness is an outcome of natural processes, not a required starting point. One rain drop isn't the entire cloud or the entire hurricane. 

So if you agree that you would not bet on it, and I agree, I would not bet on a consciousness being the cause of all this, then don't feed either the fundies, or the si fi wooers. 

Consciousness is a temporary blip, just like a hurricane does not exist prior to existing and has to build up to one, but even then, it has a finite time and will eventually break up and stop being a hurricane.
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#20
RE: I don't understand pantheism
(July 26, 2017 at 1:08 am)Astreja Wrote: If it were some sort of neural network, though, it would have to somehow be interconnected.  The only "wiring" it appears to have is starlight.

Which also means that it would think sloooooowly -- over 4 years for us to get a data packet from the neuron at Proxima Centauri, 4.2 light years away.

Maybe that's what Quantum Entanglement is for!! You've cracked it! QE is the Universal Consciousness thinking!!!1!!

Alex K! Quick, add this to your woo list to finance your retirement!
Sum ergo sum
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