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a new atheist and marriage
#41
RE: a new atheist and marriage
(August 8, 2017 at 3:51 pm)Dropship Wrote:
(August 8, 2017 at 12:26 pm)Brian37 Wrote: ..Still yet to have a female Pope, and I really don't think that will happen anytime soon.
FYI, that picture depicts a revised interpretation reflecting modern morals, not the morals of the writers of that book. The further back in time you go the less rights females had. 
The reason those women do that now is because more people skip over the sexism in the bible and completely ignore it.
Our modern west became civil in spite of that book, not because of it.

We don't give a rat's ass about the Pope and catholicism, maybe him and his priests just don't like girls..Smile

[Image: pope-women_zpsxeitytwk.jpg~original]

Maybe somebody should remind him that Paul said-
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus" (Galatians 3:28 )
And Jesus said to the snooty priests-"The prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you" (Matt 21:31)
And he's got womens backs- "I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart" (Matt 5:28 )

First off, I am a former Catholic. Secondly, anyone of any sect who holds the position that Jesus is real, and the son of the only God, are Christians. Holding different sect labels does not change that. Again, 50 years ago you wouldn't have seen women of any sect leading a church, regardless of sect. 100 years ago all Christians of all sects held the belief that women should not have the right to vote. Further back in time you had women and girls being burned at the stake being accused of being witches. 

"Looking at them lustfully", did not mean pro women. It meant don't look at other means property as if you can have it. Girls/women in all of antiquity worldwide were considered property of the male head of the household. Women's rights are a recent thing this past century.

That is simply your own watered down interpretation because the thought of the reality of antiquity bothers you. What you should do instead of trying to interpret old mythology to try to cling to it, simply try to understand that was then and this is now. But do not try to sell me the idea that the men of antiquity treated women equally, they did not. Women back then at best were depicted as props in mythology to make the male figures look good. But they were never considered equals.
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#42
RE: a new atheist and marriage
I think there are a lot of conservatives that do not believe in god. They play along with the social normality of their peer group because it is just as easy to not make a big deal out of what at the end of the day is a personal thing (belief in god). I think that the dynamic of your relationship with your fiance is really no ones business but yours. I will say that a relationship based on two equals is always more stable and rewarding. You both should think in terms of we, you are a team and collectively you will create a better existence than you ever could as two individuals. Do not get hung up on gender rolls and what other people think, that can all change in an instant. Continue to learn and better yourselves so new experiences open up for you both.

So do not feel that you are alone in holding conservative ideals. In general most atheists are left leaning, some are pretty extreme. Extremists think that anyone with conservative ideals is a stupid racist who's perspective deserve only ridicule.
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#43
RE: a new atheist and marriage
(August 8, 2017 at 6:38 pm)Hammok Man Wrote: I think there are a lot of conservatives that do not believe in god.  They play along with the social normality of their peer group because it is just as easy to not make a big deal out of what at the end of the day is a personal thing (belief in god).  I think that the dynamic of your relationship with your fiance is really no ones business but yours.  I will say that a relationship based on two equals is always more stable and rewarding.   You both should think in terms of we, you are a team and collectively you will create a better existence than you ever could as two individuals.  Do not get hung up on gender rolls and what other people think, that can all change in an instant.  Continue to learn and better yourselves so new experiences open up for you both.

So do not feel that you are alone in holding conservative ideals. In general most atheists are left leaning, some are pretty extreme.  Extremists think that anyone with conservative ideals is a stupid racist who's perspective deserve only ridicule.

I wish people would not idealize any relationship. In reality some women and some men are better at leading, even when it comes to jobs. And some women and some men are better at being helpers. 50/50 works too, but it is not the end all either. There is no utopia model when it comes to relationships, be it family or co worker. The only thing in any relationship that really matters is communication and consent, not leading, not following not 50/50, but communication and consent. All of those options still depend on communication and consent. 

But yea, I do agree, the only people that matter are the people involved and unless abuse is involved, nobody outside that relationship has any say. If the couple is happy that is what matters. 

There are economic conservatives whom are not religious sure. And there are certainly even some social conservatives whom are not religious as well. But, in today's political climate, the religious right has hijacked our government and the economic conservatives have also hijacked our government. That marriage between the religious right and the economic right all started with Nixon's southern strategy combined with Jerry Falwell's "moral majority" push back in the 70s and 80s. That started the age of Reagan's deregulation and "don't tax the rich" climate. And ever since the pay gap between the top and the bottom has exploded, and workers, compared to before Reagan virtually have no say now.
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#44
RE: a new atheist and marriage
(August 8, 2017 at 9:47 am)Astonished Wrote: Encouraging someone who's been brainwashed into accepting a role as a perpetual inferior and submissive servant to continue to embrace that demeaning identity and not aspire to anything loftier? Maybe I read between the lines a bit too heavily but that's what I got out of it. Carry on.

Being a stay at home mom/wife does not make someone inferior to the person who works outside the home. That's your own prejudiced opinion. Each couple is free to do what works for them and what they are comfortable with. There is no objective right or wrong here.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly." 

-walsh
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#45
RE: a new atheist and marriage
(August 8, 2017 at 8:30 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Being a stay at home mom/wife does not make someone inferior to the person who works outside the home. That's your own prejudiced opinion. Each couple is free to do what works for them and what they are comfortable with. There is no objective right or wrong here.

So much this. Thank you!
I don't believe you. Get over it.
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#46
RE: a new atheist and marriage
(August 8, 2017 at 8:30 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Being a stay at home mom/wife does not make someone inferior to the person who works outside the home. That's your own prejudiced opinion. Each couple is free to do what works for them and what they are comfortable with. There is no objective right or wrong here.

C_L, I think you'd have to admit that some religions do impose duties, positions and limit choices, particularly on females in the marriage. I think you'd also have to admit that some religions enforce marriage within the religion, particularly on females, or they are basically shunned.
I don't have an anger problem, I have an idiot problem




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#47
RE: a new atheist and marriage
(August 8, 2017 at 8:40 pm)mh.brewer Wrote:
(August 8, 2017 at 8:30 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Being a stay at home mom/wife does not make someone inferior to the person who works outside the home. That's your own prejudiced opinion. Each couple is free to do what works for them and what they are comfortable with. There is no objective right or wrong here.

C_L, I think you'd have to admit that some religions do impose duties, positions and limit choices, particularly on females in the marriage. I think you'd also have to admit that some religions enforce marriage within the religion, particularly on females, or they are basically shunned.

Sure, but from what I can see, that's not what is happening here. Here we have a woman who wants to be a stay at home mom at her own choosing. Assuming that every stay at home mom/wife only does it because she is brainwashed into doing so is pretty offensive on multiple levels.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly." 

-walsh
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#48
RE: a new atheist and marriage
(August 8, 2017 at 8:30 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:
(August 8, 2017 at 9:47 am)Astonished Wrote: Encouraging someone who's been brainwashed into accepting a role as a perpetual inferior and submissive servant to continue to embrace that demeaning identity and not aspire to anything loftier? Maybe I read between the lines a bit too heavily but that's what I got out of it. Carry on.

Being a stay at home mom/wife does not make someone inferior to the person who works outside the home. That's your own prejudiced opinion. Each couple is free to do what works for them and what they are comfortable with. There is no objective right or wrong here.

Yes I agree, but a stay at home dad isn't thought of as equally. Outside that, I agree it is what works between the couple, not what others think. 

What we ARE saying however, is when you consider the context of the time that book was written, girls/women were expected to be submissive to the males in their family. Even inheritance went to the first born male not the females in the family. The bible in no way reflects our modern morality. Our modern morality came about as a result of ignoring the sexist passages in the bible, not by enforcing them or taking them literally. 

But sure nothing wrong with being a stay at home spouse, but if you are justifying that through your religion then you are putting yourself in a position of antiquated morality. If you are basing your stay at home position solely on you, and not what that book says, then sure, nobody should have a problem with it.

We are arguing your logic, not your rights. As far as rights go nobody is going to stop you.
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#49
RE: a new atheist and marriage
(August 8, 2017 at 8:44 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:
(August 8, 2017 at 8:40 pm)mh.brewer Wrote: C_L, I think you'd have to admit that some religions do impose duties, positions and limit choices, particularly on females in the marriage. I think you'd also have to admit that some religions enforce marriage within the religion, particularly on females, or they are basically shunned.

Sure, but from what I can see, that's not what is happening here. Here we have a woman who wants to be a stay at home mom at her own choosing. Assuming that every stay at home mom/wife only does it because she is brainwashed into doing so is pretty offensive on multiple levels.

I agree.
I don't have an anger problem, I have an idiot problem




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#50
RE: a new atheist and marriage
(August 8, 2017 at 1:35 am)paulpablo Wrote:
(August 7, 2017 at 9:50 pm)Astonished Wrote: A rational, intelligent and intellectually honest person, one would hope. Armed with evidence that such a relationship is demonstrably harmful. That's who you could be, to judge.

What's harmful about a traditional relationship?

In relation to the original post where both participants enjoy the traditional male or female role in the relationship.

Saying someone is "confined" to gender conforming roles makes it sound bad, but being confined to what you want, until/if you change your mind, is just part of making decisions. 

Someone who's a dominatrix lesbian with a female partner is confined to that role for as long as they participate in it just as a female who is traditionally married and cooks, cleans looks after kids while he goes to work is confined to that role.

And thank whatever it is that you thank that we live in free societies that allow couples to decide between themselves how to live. I personally choose partners like me that don't care for rigidly defined gender roles. And who knows, the couple in the OP may end up that way too. But atheism does not include a set of rules that men and women must abide by simply based on their sex organs nor does it require that couples have non-traditional roles.

-Teresa
.
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