the slippery "F" word - my solution

[yuriythebest]

[quote='solja247' pid='100908' dateline='1287824864']

As a child going to a Christian school, I was told from kindergarten and up, that a sky daddy existed. I believed such for years. Until I stopped being indoctrinated on a regular basis, I did not question the existence of the sky daddy. This is what happens with a lot of people.

What reason do you have not to believe in God?

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Hell doctrine. Period.

yup. Imagine if science worked like that:
Believe in gravity.... OR ELSE!!

[Volt]

What reason do you have not to believe in God?

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Personnally non-belief in god is my default position.

There is no evidence to that I have encountered to make me change that position.

So I dont believe.

Why dont you believe in unicorns?(I assume you dont)

I would guess that it is because in all likelyhood they dont exist and so there is no REAL evidence that they ever did. (I have seen what was said in the middle ages to be a unicorn horn but turned out to be a Narwhal tooth)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narwhal

I bet your default position is that there is a god and that you require evidence to knock you out of that belief.

I prefer evidence for the things I believe in.

You're correlating a situation with closed parameters to one with no parameters.
The most natural default view you could have is "don't know," so lack of evidence is not the factor that predisposes you to take an opposite belief.

We know unicorns don't exist, on the planet Earth, because Earth has been investigated and there are no unicorns, and its found that the narwhal tooth was misattributed evidence. Now, how would you know there are not unicorns or unicorn-like creatures on another planet somewhere? In another dimension or parallel universe or something?
Since we haven't explored every possible location within existence and much less any alternative existences if they happen to exist, a broad claim like "unicorns don't exist, anywhere" isn't very rational, right? Unicorns are still in the realm of possibility, even if unlikely. But how do we even determine likelihood, when we don't even have all the information about where unicorns could possibly reside?

You believe there are no unicorns, rather than stating that you don't know whether or not there could be unicorns. With no evidence for your belief.

Your statement, that you prefer evidence for the things you believe in, is false.

This is presuming you meant your statement as a universal claim, because you were correlating it with a universal claim.

[solja247]

Personnally non-belief in god is my default position.

There is no evidence to that I have encountered to make me change that position.

So I dont believe.

Why dont you believe in unicorns?(I assume you dont)

I would guess that it is because in all likelyhood they dont exist and so there is no REAL evidence that they ever did. (I have seen what was said in the middle ages to be a unicorn horn but turned out to be a Narwhal tooth)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narwhal

I bet your default position is that there is a god and that you require evidence to knock you out of that belief.

I prefer evidence for the things I believe in.

You are asking for scientific evidence. How about philosophical evidence?

Hell doctrine. Period.

The idea hell is burning forever and ever is not Biblical or Jewish. I would not be a theist if I believed in hell.

[yuriythebest]

You are asking for scientific evidence. How about philosophical evidence?

Okay, let's go down that path: let's find the philosophical evidence for lighting.
For lighting occurs, and is accompanied my great roars from the sky, who can
even dispute that it's Zeus throwing them and that the roars are his wrath??

The idea hell is burning forever and ever is not Biblical or Jewish.

Jesus explains why he speaks in parables to confuse people so they will go to hell. Mark 4:11-12

I would not be a theist if I believed in hell.

so you are invoking the no true Scotsman fallacy? Not even "I would not be a christian" but a "theist"??? you are telling me that all those christians and muslims that believe in hell are not theists? but wait, that'd mean they're *drumroll** atheists!!! yess !!! we have a great boost in numbers!!!! thanks!!!!!!!

[solja247]

Okay, let's go down that path: let's find the philosophical evidence for lighting.
For lighting occurs, and is accompanied my great roars from the sky, who can
even dispute that it's Zeus throwing them and that the roars are his wrath??

I dont see how this proves anything?

We first of all we have to define what God is. I think its safe to say, that God is the creator, not the one who causes it to rain, snow, hail etc.
I like this quote from wikipedia:

Drange emphasizes that any stance on "Does god exist?" is made with respect to a particular concept of what one claims to consider "god" to represent:

Since the word "God" has many different meanings, it is possible for the sentence "God exists" to express many different propositions. What we need to do is to focus on each proposition separately. … For each different sense of the term "God," there will be theists, atheists, and agnostics relative to that concept of God.[7]
As god means very different things to different people, when the word is spoken, an ignostic may seek to determine if something like a child's definition of a god is meant or if a theologian's is intended instead. A theistic child's concept generally has a simple and coherent meaning, based on an anthropomorphic conception of god.[10] Many philosophers and theologians have rejected this conception of god while affirming belief in another conception of god, including St. Augustine, Maimonides, St. Thomas Aquinas, Baruch Spinoza, and Søren Kierkegaard.

Jesus explains why he speaks in parables to confuse people so they will go to hell. Mark 4:11-12

I dont see how?

so you are invoking the no true Scotsman fallacy? Not even "I would not be a christian" but a "theist"??? you are telling me that all those christians and muslims that believe in hell are not theists? but wait, that'd mean they're *drumroll** atheists!!! yess !!! we have a great boost in numbers!!!! thanks!!!!!!!

Some of the greatest theists have believed in hell. I wouldnt be a theist if I believed in an eternal hell, that is all I meant.

[yuriythebest]

I dont see how this proves anything?

my point exactly - we can talk about how lighting and the creation of the universe requires supernatural causes all day, that won't make it true

We first of all we have to define what God is.

ok

I think its safe to say, that God is the creator

why what evidence do you have? I have no reason to think this

, not the one who causes it to rain, snow, hail etc.

tell that to the ancient greeks


I like this quote from wikipedia:

Drange emphasizes that any stance on "Does god exist?" is made with respect to a particular concept of what one claims to consider "god" to represent:

Since the word "God" has many different meanings, it is possible for the sentence "God exists" to express many different propositions. What we need to do is to focus on each proposition separately. … For each different sense of the term "God," there will be theists, atheists, and agnostics relative to that concept of God.[7]
As god means very different things to different people, when the word is spoken, an ignostic may seek to determine if something like a child's definition of a god is meant or if a theologian's is intended instead. A theistic child's concept generally has a simple and coherent meaning, based on an anthropomorphic conception of god.[10] Many philosophers and theologians have rejected this conception of god while affirming belief in another conception of god, including St. Augustine, Maimonides, St. Thomas Aquinas, Baruch Spinoza, and Søren Kierkegaard.

I agree- there are a myriad of variegated definitions of the term God

Jesus explains why he speaks in parables to confuse people so they will go to hell. Mark 4:11-12

I dont see how?

ok bad example, here are a few references to hell in the Bible:

2 Peter 2:4-5 says, "For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment."

Mark 9:46 describes hell as: "Their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched."

Matthew 8:12 says, "But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Isaiah 66:24 reads: "And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind."

Daniel 12:2 describes the duration of hell: "Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt."

Luke 16:22-24 uses a parable to describe hell: "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'"

Luke 12:5 says, "But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him."

Mark 9:47 says, "And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell."

Matthew 23:33 reads: "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?"

Revelation 19:20 talks about the fiery lake: "But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur."

so you are invoking the no true Scotsman fallacy? Not even "I would not be a christian" but a "theist"??? you are telling me that all those christians and muslims that believe in hell are not theists? but wait, that'd mean they're *drumroll** atheists!!! yess !!! we have a great boost in numbers!!!! thanks!!!!!!!

Some of the greatest theists have believed in hell. I wouldnt be a theist if I believed in an eternal hell, that is all I meant.

Excellent, then what you are saying is that means all of the christians who DO believe in an eternal hell, as well as all the other religions that do are all atheists. While fewer than those who believe in hell overall, still quite a few more for us.

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Quote:Hell doctrine. Period.

The idea hell is burning forever and ever is not Biblical or Jewish. I would not be a theist if I believed in hell.

Ahh I see what you did there. The OP's objection was to the hell doctrine - you on the other hand mentioned something unrelated - the length of time that hell burns, while the OP's objection was to hell in general. Nice.

I'd like to disagree with the OP as well - it's IRRELEVANT whether one LIKES anything in the bible or not, what matters is if the supernatural claims in it are true. I have seen no reason to think that.

[solja247]

ok bad example, here are a few references to hell in the Bible:

2 Peter 2:4-5 says, "For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment."

Mark 9:46 describes hell as: "Their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched."

Matthew 8:12 says, "But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Isaiah 66:24 reads: "And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind."

Daniel 12:2 describes the duration of hell: "Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt."

Luke 16:22-24 uses a parable to describe hell: "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'"

Luke 12:5 says, "But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him."

Mark 9:47 says, "And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell."

Matthew 23:33 reads: "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?"

Revelation 19:20 talks about the fiery lake: "But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur."

Two things. Forever in Jewish think was not infinite, it was an unknown amout of time. Hell will last as long as it take, but it will end at some point. Another, is hell really a fiery place? Its sounds to cliche to be true. Perhaps it is perhaps it isnt. The bible says hell is going to be a fiery palce, but it also says there is not going to be any ocean on the New Earth, we should understand the context.

Excellent, then what you are saying is that means all of the christians who DO believe in an eternal hell, as well as all the other religions that do are all atheists. While fewer than those who believe in hell overall, still quite a few more for us.

I never said that.

I'd like to disagree with the OP as well - it's IRRELEVANT whether one LIKES anything in the bible or not, what matters is if the supernatural claims in it are true. I have seen no reason to think that.

The real question is; should we read the Bible as fundie or a theologian?

why what evidence do you have? I have no reason to think this

What created the universe?

Note: I believe He exists, I dont have proofs.

[yuriythebest]

ok bad example, here are a few references to hell in the Bible:

2 Peter 2:4-5 says, "For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment."

Mark 9:46 describes hell as: "Their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched."

Matthew 8:12 says, "But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Isaiah 66:24 reads: "And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind."

Daniel 12:2 describes the duration of hell: "Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt."

Luke 16:22-24 uses a parable to describe hell: "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'"

Luke 12:5 says, "But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him."

Mark 9:47 says, "And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell."

Matthew 23:33 reads: "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?"

Revelation 19:20 talks about the fiery lake: "But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur."

Two things. Forever in Jewish think was not infinite, it was an unknown amout of time. Hell will last as long as it take, but it will end at some point. Another, is hell really a fiery place? Its sounds to cliche to be true. Perhaps it is perhaps it isnt. The bible says hell is going to be a fiery palce, but it also says there is not going to be any ocean on the New Earth, we should understand the context.

So what? What the bible says about hell and whether it's eternal or not really makes no difference since there is no good reason to believe it even exists. You were trying to obfuscate the matter by debating the amount of time hell lasts as opposed to the actual OP's comment that it simply existed in Christianity.

Excellent, then what you are saying is that means all of the christians who DO believe in an eternal hell, as well as all the other religions that do are all atheists. While fewer than those who believe in hell overall, still quite a few more for us.

I never said that.

Some of the greatest theists have believed in hell. I wouldnt be a theist if I believed in an eternal hell, that is all I meant.

ahh okey you were just talking about yourself. sorry for the confusion.

I'd like to disagree with the OP as well - it's IRRELEVANT whether one LIKES anything in the bible or not, what matters is if the supernatural claims in it are true. I have seen no reason to think that.

The real question is; should we read the Bible as fundie or a theologian?

as anthropologists

why what evidence do you have? I have no reason to think this

What created the universe?

I have no idea- there are some scientific theories out there but no one knows for sure. To declare otherwise would be arrogant.

Note: I believe He exists, I dont have proofs.

case closed. religious faith is a BAD way of determining what is real and what ain't.

[Amethyst]

The idea hell is burning forever and ever is not Biblical or Jewish. I would not be a theist if I believed in hell.

It was considered Biblical for the Lutheran church I grew up in. I pretty much was given no choice.

I reject the notion that innocent people should be tortured forever, or murdered (if one is "liberal" and believes hell = death) for their beliefs. If someone is born into a Buddhist community, according to ultra-conservative Christian religion, they should be tortured for their Buddhist beliefs? That is wrong. It is equally wrong if they are killed (i.e. the hell = death version of the doctrine).

Thoughts should not be something one is punished eternally for, or murdered for. Being born into another culture and tortured or killed for it is unfair punishment. Christianity is a cultural thing.

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I'd like to disagree with the OP as well - it's IRRELEVANT whether one LIKES anything in the bible or not, what matters is if the supernatural claims in it are true. I have seen no reason to think that.

I'm not the OP, I'm simply replying to the post.

[yuriythebest]

The idea hell is burning forever and ever is not Biblical or Jewish. I would not be a theist if I believed in hell.

It was considered Biblical for the Lutheran church I grew up in. I pretty much was given no choice.

I reject the notion that innocent people should be tortured forever, or murdered (if one is "liberal" and believes hell = death) for their beliefs. If someone is born into a Buddhist community, according to ultra-conservative Christian religion, they should be tortured for their Buddhist beliefs? That is wrong. It is equally wrong if they are killed (i.e. the hell = death version of the doctrine).

Thoughts should not be something one is punished eternally for, or murdered for. Being born into another culture and tortured or killed for it is unfair punishment. Christianity is a cultural thing.

---

I'd like to disagree with the OP as well - it's IRRELEVANT whether one LIKES anything in the bible or not, what matters is if the supernatural claims in it are true. I have seen no reason to think that.

I'm not the OP, I'm simply replying to the post.

hi!, sorry by OP I meant the original poster of the whole rejecting hell thing. It is an incorrect reason to not be a christian - in a sense like saying "I dislike Zeus, so I will reject him" - it sounds totally superfluous. Rather, I'd rephrase it as "there is no good evidence to believe that anything supernatural in the bible, like hell, even existed"