A few points of conflict with Jackie L's (Eilonnwy) article.

[tavarish]

Here's another exchange:

http://www.facebook.com/eilonnwy/posts/1...ment_reply

I'll quote from LJ

"the absence of a belief system in a particular or generalized deity is still a belief system. atheism is a system of beliefs that denies there is an active deity aka a non-theistic belief system, and is characterized as s...uch because it is a shared system of beliefs (the belief that there is no god) without socio, economic, race, or nationalistic ties. (this is coming straight from a religious studies major) that is still a belief system regardless of whether you personally choose to view it as such or whether atheists as a whole come to a congruent agreement about it. a belief system has nothing to do with religion btw, there are many superstition based belief systems (ie, luck belief systems which include things like lucky clovers, or throwing salt over your shoulder for luck) it is simply a system of beliefs that are contained within or without a construct for supporting those beliefs, often spread across many boundaries such as class and race. agnosticism is also a belief system despite the lack of a rigid structure for practicing beliefs. for someone who so consumed with intelligence, you display an awful lack of it with regards to basic categorizations used in academic contexts. "
http://community.livejournal.com/sf_dram...t561337339

When you read books, talk in atheist forums, go to atheist meetups, listen to atheist podcasts, blogs, livejournal communities etc... under the label of atheism, you have a community. When you have a community you have spokespeople like the 4 horsemen and the idiots commenting in atheist online communities, from them you have a demographic. There is a white male straight demographic and they are dripping with privilege and their "Anti-PC"ness, and it's a disgrace.

This is really fucking simple, but you keep wanting to display your white male privileged asshattery and make sure I know you refuse to get it and revel in your privilege. Good job. Now shut up.

I got to "atheism is a system of beliefs" and then it became all too clear what your point was. Allow me to introduce to you an argument that isn't rife with fallacy.

Atheism is an answer to the question "Do you believe in God." Particularl...y, it is what happens when your answer is anything other than "yes". It is not a belief system, it does not abide by any moral, political, or cultural guidelines, it is an answer to a question. No more, no less. What you have done is erected a set of ideals that stem from your atheism, and condemn others that don't conform to it. As great as that may seem, it's still your ideology and nothing more, and no one is obligated to live by it. Agnosticism is an answer to a question regarding knowledge. It is a belief system in the same way that "Do you know what time it is?" is a tenet for a belief system.

You mean to tell me that when I post on an atheist forum, I'm part of a community? NO WAI!! Thanks for the education, perhaps I couldn't see through my white male guilt to understand that! You're so insightful and convincing!

No shit we're part of a community. You forget to realize that the only criteria for being in that community is an interest in the topic. You don't even have to be an atheist, for fuck's sake. This attracts MANY individuals, lots of people with different views - some of them homophobic, sexist, and racist. If you feel that 4 authors speak for you, then good job on being a cog in a machine that isn't interested in what you think or who you are. Dawkins doesn't speak for me any more than I speak for him. The same goes for any other "spokespeople" in the community. My views are mine and mine alone, the same goes for you, no matter how much you cry about how the community doesn't agree with your points of view.

Members in a community can exhibit similar traits, but at what point is that entire community spoken for by an ideology, and who gets to decide it?
Everyone has belief systems - atheists included. What you're doing is saying that those belief systems are necessarily intertwined because most individuals within that community have the same answer to one question that inherently does not carry any beliefs of its own. That is simply silly and a logically fallacious way of approaching the issue.

If I'm a part of a car community (which I am), and I am bigoted (which I am not) and display that publicly, at what point do I speak for others?

I'll be glad to check my privilege at the door, as I'm not actually white, no matter how much you might think so. But I am a male, which automatically means I must be guilty of not having periods, and that's bad because it means "I don't get it".

Next time you want to demonstrate something, don't use some fucking post from livejournal as if it makes any difference in presenting the issue, when the core meaning of the post is flawed. Asshattery aside, stop being surprised when your inflammatory and fallacious texts turn around and bite you the your ass when people call you out on your rants.

I love the double standards you use. A+.

[fr0d0]

I guess I'm asking you how I'm being oppressive for the sole purpose of reading my own text.

It isn't your own text Tav. It's in your position as male. I didn't mention you as specifically oppressive in your words. I used an example of an oppressive king to illustrate the position of privilege.

I am not ashamed for who am I. I don't have white guilt, and will never have it. Anyone who tries to push that onto me will only get contempt.

So the degradation that your $ causes is not any of your concern?

[Eilonnwy]

As usual on this subject I find your stance repulsive Tav. You're the oppressive king complaining to the slave that they're not considering your feelings. You need to check your stance and try to approach it in a fair manner. Nothing will come of your bullying tactics other than reproducing the discrimination you are being asked to reign in.

I wasn't going to respond here, because I'm leaving this forum entirely for reasons stated in my other thread. However, I read your response fr0d0 and I want to thank you for getting the point so wonderfully and completely. Keep in touch on twitter!

[Spectrum]

Most atheists I've met are pro-equality. There's a difference in being religiously bigoted about equality, and saying "hey, life isn't fair but some of these societal norms are bullshit". I'm educated on the subject, but the fact is, if peopel of colour/female/etc. weren't picked on then some other group would be picked on (like disabled people, or redheads). I say equality for all, not just certain groups like blacks, latinos, women, homosexuals, bisexuals, etc. Focusing on all of them at once by teaching the philosopy of "you lack the perception to truly judge" is a much more efficient and holistic approach.

I know your article meant well Eilonnwy, but it's a bit too linear. How am I, a white, straight male, supposed to reach out to those groups you mentioned? I practice equality by treating all of them fairly, but should I really care about the demographics? If they don't decide to join the club of reason, then that's their fault.

[Edwardo Piet]

"the absence of a belief system in a particular or generalized deity is still a belief system[...]"

That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. The absence of a belief system can only be an absence of a belief system, it cannot be a belief system.

[A Theist]

I guess I'm asking you how I'm being oppressive for the sole purpose of reading my own text.

It isn't your own text Tav. It's in your position as male. I didn't mention you as specifically oppressive in your words. I used an example of an oppressive king to illustrate the position of privilege.

I am not ashamed for who am I. I don't have white guilt, and will never have it. Anyone who tries to push that onto me will only get contempt.

So the degradation that your $ causes is not any of your concern?

Frodo, I read the article. The content was controversial,(...and she has every right to her opinion). I can't believe she didn't expect to be challenged. The responses to her Op- Ed are understandable. Surely, you see that, dont you? The only problem is that the discussion became more of an angry back and forth, trying to win an argument, rather than a debate.

[tavarish]

If someone thinks race is ever irrelevant, then that's privilege. Plain and simple. It's a fact that there is an atheist community, and that community is mostly white, straight, cisgender, men. We don't live in a world where a person's words trumps race and I don't live in a fantasy world where ~intellectualism is the be all and end all, and that race doesnt matter. You refuse to acknowledge what is plainly there to see, and to your own detriment, no less.

Holy crap, I don't even know where to start with that. It's privilege to want to treat everyone on an equal field regardless of race? Do you understand that this is thinly veiled racism?

I honestly don't know what world you live in, but my actions speak for me. Societal norms that must take into account your race/gender/sexual orientation/any other differences before you open your mouth is something I don't accept, condone, or subscribe to. Why should I check my privilege at the door when I find it irrelevant to even bring it into the conversation at any point? Without it, it's just a bunch of people exchanging ideas on equal ground, and being judged by the merit of their words and the content of their character. How is that at all detrimental, and why can't we strive for this ideal, even if it's not fully realized in this age?

I honestly think you're searching less for equality and more for special treatment and ideological assent. You don't display a want to hear others' ideas if they don't agree with your own.

---

It isn't your own text Tav. It's in your position as male. I didn't mention you as specifically oppressive in your words. I used an example of an oppressive king to illustrate the position of privilege.

You implied that my words were that of an oppressor simply because I am a male. Please explain how.

[Cego_Colher]

It isn't your own text Tav. It's in your position as male. I didn't mention you as specifically oppressive in your words. I used an example of an oppressive king to illustrate the position of privilege.

You implied that my words were that of an oppressor simply because I am a male. Please explain how.

this might be strange off topic, but when I first 'met' Tav I thought he was actually female. I don't know if this was his name, his avatar, the fact I'm female or something else. but if I thought he was female for a bit then he's probably not an oppressive white male, unless he's oppressive to other males and I didn't see that.
That might also be irrelevant.

[Tiberius]

As I said in IRC, you don't get to equality by making people feel guilty about who they are in society (in fact I believe that just turns the table around and shifts the inequality onto them).

I don't check my privilege at the door, because I don't believe I should have any privilege based on how I was born. The anti-racist sees a black man, a white man, and a chinese man. I see three men, race completely irrelevant.

This is how I was brought up; how the anti-racists at the time wanted me to think, but now when I do think this way, they punish me. They want me to feel guilty for something I haven't done. How can we ever move forward as a society if we have a movement that seems to want to continually remind us that not all people are equal? All people *are* equal, and as soon as people realize this, society will change. It won't change whilst favouritism is given to specific races, and whilst the majority race is made to feel guilty for the way they were born.

[Edwardo Piet]

For me to feel guilty for being white and male is just as ridiculous as for me to feel proud about it.

I don't feel guilty or proud of anything that is a mere accident of birth. At least, I try not to.