A few points of conflict with Jackie L's (Eilonnwy) article.

[Tiberius]

Just thought I'd post my favourite video of Morgan Freeman, whose views on race / racism seem to be perfectly inline with my own:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2d2SzRZvsQ

Stop insisting there are "differences" between races, and you'll stop people thinking there might be.

[Edwardo Piet]

Matters like this always remind me of that episode of South Park

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chef_Goes_Nanners

[Tiberius]

It's a strange world where South Park can take the moral high-ground, but on this issue they get it completely right.

[Autumnlicious]

In the end, ethnic diversity is added to the flag: people of all races, hand-in-hand, are hanging the black man, including another black man. Chef delivers the moral of this story: his inclination to anti-racism almost made him a racist himself; perceiving things according to race leads only to further racism.

If all you have is a hammer...

---

I guess I'm asking you how I'm being oppressive for the sole purpose of reading my own text.

It isn't your own text Tav. It's in your position as male. I didn't mention you as specifically oppressive in your words. I used an example of an oppressive king to illustrate the position of privilege.

Sins of the father much?

I am not ashamed for who am I. I don't have white guilt, and will never have it. Anyone who tries to push that onto me will only get contempt.

So the degradation that your $ causes is not any of your concern?

What the sodding hell?

My '$' as you put it? I live off of financial aid asshole. What motherfucking dollars?

Oh wait - I get it - I 'attained' my position in college due to my white skin, not due to the research I did, the come back in highschool from certain failure to fantastic success, my involvement in town government in a non-Youth council endeavor (community services commission). Damn! If it wasn't for the color of my skin...

[thesummerqueen]

I am white, and I am a woman. I was raised Jewish, and now do not share in the supernatural aspects of that faith, so I identify with atheism too. Take your pick for being discriminated against. Yes I include white in that mix - racism is not a one way street.

I read Eil's article, and she has good points. So do the rest of you. Here's the fact of the matter though: people need to quit blaming others for their problems.

This is not a thousand years ago, or 500 years ago, or even 50 years ago. As a society, we're a hell of a lot further along than we were. We're not perfect, but I think it's ridiculous not to recognize that the defining factor between then and now is that anyone who wants to have a voice and a cause can have one. That's freedom. Especially now in the internet age. The fact that Eil found articles to back herself up, to even identify the problem, shows that we're allowed to state what we feel - if we're allowed to do that, we're allowed to influence others with our words and actions.

If I don't get hired for a job, yes, maybe it's because I was a woman, not a man - that's still a viable possibility nowadays, just as it could be based on race or religion. It's my duty to myself then to pick myself back up and find something else, not to cry "discrimination!" Don't get me wrong - discrimination has to be recognized, but this needs to be tempered with the recognition that life is going to throw bullshit at you no matter how much money you have, what your skin color is, what your beliefs are, and even where you are from.

I can't say we're all equal - we all have different talents, levels of intelligence, different priorities, and different perceptions. But we ARE all equal in that we all have the ability to try again and again and not allow ourselves to be held down.

So I'm at work and I get irritated and some guy brushes it off as me "being on the rag". I can call foul all I want - or I can get smarter and explain to him exactly what the hell was irritating me. It's just as demeaning to a man to say "you don't understand!" and not attempt to explain it to them and assume they can't accept it as it is for them to say it - whether the topic be my menstrual cycle or my frustrations. I don't understand why he falls to the ground if I accidentally swing my hand around and it connects with his nutsack, but I can try to empathize with his pain. When you tell a person "you don't understand" you are being just as bigoted as they are. I suffer from it myself all the time.

Yes, people need to point out where someone is being a bigot. Yes, we should all attempt to think outside of our own bubbles and try to stand in another person's shoes, but that doesn't apply to just race or religion - empathizing with people would solve a whole lot of shit in this world.

"You can't do this because you're not smart enough." Fuck you, I'll learn. "You can't do this because you're a girl." Fuck you as well - unless it involves reproductive organs, since I don't have a penis, get out of my damn way. Fuck you to any other reason why you say I can't do something - it better be because I physically can't attain it (my midget ass will never play basketball, after all) or my brain has reached its capacity. THAT is the attitude you have to take - the more you put yourself out there and prove to everyday people that we're all capable of accomplishing the same things, the faster this world will realize that the bigoted opinions we held were ill-informed. But telling me I have to apologize because I was born with certain "privileges" is bullshit. No one is helpless, especially not in this country. I've watched too many friends rise to amazing lives because they didn't ask for apologies. They got up and did it.

Don't demean another human being because of his accident of birth. If you ask someone to apologize and grovel before you because they were born in some superior position, a fact they can't help, you merely take away the glory of rising from yourself. You don't get the same reward for conquering the mountain by cutting portions of it away instead of climbing the damn thing.

[fr0d0]

Good post TSQ, though I think you're dreaming a little if you think the playing field is level. Adrian by position of his birth will have far more opportunities than the crud he wipes off his shoes when passing close by a poor area.

We need to examine ourselves to see that what we take for granted isn't causing someone else hardship. That we're content is meaningless in this equation.. you don't get to pass on your responsibility. Ever.

That Eilonnwy is harassed for bringing up an inequality speaks volumes.

[Skipper]

For me to feel guilty for being white and male is just as ridiculous as for me to feel proud about it.

I don't feel guilty or proud of anything that is a mere accident of birth. At least, I try not to.

This ^ and Adrian's Morgan Freeman video sum up my views on the issue. Race, sexuality and gender shouldn't come into play.

Racism is Racism, whether you are trying to hurt a black person due to your own prejudice or give them a promotion due to wanting to be "fair". People (and I have a white middle class friend just like it) and governments who fight the cause of these "minorities" and crusade for what they see as an equal society are as big of a problem as people who try and keep "minorities" down. They cause problems and divisions where there is none, they cause resentment and conflict where there need be none. Most people, and I see myself included in this, don't have a problem with anyone due to their race, gender or sexual preference but for some reason some people seem to think I should feel guilty for being a white, heterosexual male...FUCK OFF! Everyone's equal in my eyes until they prove themselves to be a fucking idiot for what they say or do, and not for what they look like.

[Tiberius]

The point is, fr0d0, that I did not ask for any of those opportunities. I'll gladly fight for equality, and I long for a world where a man and a woman go for a job interview, and are viewed by the interviewer as two people, gender irrelevant. What I do not appreciate is being told that I must feel guilty for the way I was born; that I need to "check" my privilege at the door, because I do not think in terms of privilege. My philosophy is this: all people are equal. If I see actions that fly in the face of that, I know that something must be done. It matters not if it is a woman or a man who is being abused; both are human beings, and both instances go against my philosophy.

I also disagree that Eilonnwy was harassed over this. I don't see any harassment; I see people of differing opinions clashing on a discussion forum. If you can't handle the fact that other people have different opinions from you, then you should either ignore them, or not get involved. Saying people who disagree with you are "harassing" you is fucking ridiculous.

[leo-rcc]

That Eilonnwy is harassed for bringing up an inequality speaks volumes.

Nobody is harassing Eilonnwy, if anything it was the other way around.

[Shinylight]

Good post TSQ, though I think you're dreaming a little if you think the playing field is level. Adrian by position of his birth will have far more opportunities than the crud he wipes off his shoes when passing close by a poor area.

We need to examine ourselves to see that what we take for granted isn't causing someone else hardship. That we're content is meaningless in this equation.. you don't get to pass on your responsibility. Ever.

That Eilonnwy is harassed for bringing up an inequality speaks volumes.

What about all of the female privileges? Society isn't as biased towards men as you may think. Someone talking about how not having a period is male privilege kinda deserves harassment, of which there was little, if any.