A few points of conflict with Jackie L's (Eilonnwy) article.

[fr0d0]

How pathetic Dotard. That article really is scraping the barrel of reverse guilt. LOL @ explaining Ely's "psychosis". More like justifying unacceptable behaviour.

[Dotard]

More of Fr0d0s pathetic vague attempts at a reply.

Point out some points of contention. Show me where it is flawed.

Ya know what, nevermind Fr0d0. I'll just get some bullshit of an answer like "If you need to be shown the errors that demonstrates your lack of understanding." or some such bullshit.

[Tiberius]

The issue of whether the article is "flawed" aside, I do wonder what an experiment like that would be like. I suspect you'd find both sides (male and female) coming up with "positive" words to describe their respective sex, and "negative" words to describe the opposite sex.

I also wonder whether most of the words the audience come up with would be in jest, rather than a serious answer to the question.

[fr0d0]

Well that's a blanket dismissal without substance. Nice job playing to the mob Dotard.

If you really wanted an in depth discussion on your "problem" then you'd address the points already made rather than introducing such weak non justification.

It might be hard for you to understand, but I'm not interested in your belly aching & whining.

[Dotard]

WTF are you talking about? What 'points' are you bitching, belly aching and whining about me not addressing?

Again with your vague bullshit. You really ought to wipe off your shoulders, it's coming out of your ears and getting all over them.

[tavarish]

Just when you though it couldnt get any worse:

I'm missing the point here. Why can't we just take the words and actions of all people on equal ground regardless of race, rather than tying race and irrational pre-conceived notions with it and checking privilege at the door when it's nothing but the product of happenstance?

Because we don't take the words and actions of all people on equal ground regardless of race and gender. We don't check privilege at the door. It's absolutely prevalent throughout society, such as victim blaming and slut shaming when it comes to rape, to the fact that chanting rape slogans outside of a girls dorm is considered just a prank instead of the outright threat it truly is.
The only people missing the point are the people who have benefited from privilege for so long that they find it absolutely impossible to see the world from any viewpoint other than their privileged one. You assume everyone is treated the same way you are, and they aren't. There are still shops out there I refuse to set foot in because I can't get customer service attention as they assume a woman wouldn't be capable/interested. People ask 'why do you hate that store, the service there is great and the prices and selection are awesome?' Well, duh! You are a guy, you can actually get service enough to get to the prices and selection.
As a man, you don't deal with street harassment. You probably even participate and think it's good clean fun and that women should be complemented by you screaming 'hey, nice ass'. We aren't. We are insulted. And often, we are scared. As a woman, life is an extreme sport. Women have 1 in 4 odds of being sexually assaulted. That's a fear we have to live with every day. It is safer to be a mountain climber or bungee jumper than to be a woman, especially because as a mountain climber or bungee jumper there are actual steps you can take to protect yourself. Not so if you are a woman. Of course, you'll be blamed for not taking whatever steps the privileged imagine will protect you, in spite of evidence that those steps do nothing if they don't actually increase your odds of attack.

It's not happenstance that grants you privilege. It's fact that the entire culture is bent around your kind being the 'norm' and thus offers you the most opportunities.

1. You replied my question of "why don't we judge regardless of race?" with "because we don't".
2. Chanting outside a dorm room to humiliate girls is something I've never done, nor do I condone. What does this have to do with my question? Irrelevant.
3. So you assume I have privilege simply because I don't agree with you. Double standard.
4. I never assumed everyone is treated the same way, nor did I even imply that. Useless rhetoric.
5. You not being able to go into a store isn't my issue. That's an issue for law enforcement, lawyer, or a human resources department. I don't condone such behavior, and it does not speak for me.
6. You assume I don't deal with harrassment and even say I participate in ogling women by yelling obscenities. I have never done that, nor do I wish to. Double standard.
7. Your last analogy is so ridiculous that I don't even know where to begin. First, being a woman isn't an extreme sport. If it is,it's in the same sentiment as being a man is an extreme sport, or being a cat is an extreme sport. It makes zero sense because you don't have any other point of reference on which to base the claim. You see inequalities, and automatically assume X is harder than Y across the board because I've experienced Z. Also, please tell me, if you can take steps to protect yourself while bungee jumping, and the steps fail, would that be grounds for victim blaming?Your writing seems as if you're blocking off what is actually said, constructing a straw man, knocking it down, then condemning others when they don't agree that your argument holds any merit.
8. You assume culture is bent around my "kind". Do you understand that identifying something so assuming, not to mention erroneous, paints a picture of blatant racism and sexism? Do you not realize that by saying "race is an issue", you're making race an issue? If you want to promote equality, you have to realize it's not an on/off switch that is obtained by adopting a certain ideology. It's gained only through experience with different individuals which ends up in the realization that we are all essentially the same and capable of the same wonderful and horrific things. You want to rant about how you're being oppressed? Go ahead, but do it directly to your oppressors (The ones who harass you in the store, the ones that cat call and sexually abuse)- don't throw blanket statements over people when it doesn't apply to them. Throughout this conversation, you've managed to assume much of my life, none of which is actually true, then carried a smugness with you as if you've actually proved a point. What you have demonstrated is that you're incapable or at least unwilling to judge a person by what their actions and words are - and put people in categories where you can apply inflammatory straw man arguments.
You want to look for bigotry? Look in the mirror.

[thesummerqueen]

I can't even begin to respond to half of this. Holy shit.

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1) I would love examples of “chanting rape slogans” outside of dorms. I’m going to have to look that up tonight. I don’t doubt that it has happened, not for a minute. Lord knows this country is missing a few screws. But I don’t think it’s as prevalent as her words are making it sound…otherwise, I’m fairly sure I would have heard of it. Stuff like that is incredible media fodder. Could be wrong – but something like that doesn’t just get buried. Unless of course there is a wide-ranging male media conspiracy.
2) Also would love, just for myself, examples of shops she can’t get service in. You see, the only places I’ve ever walked into where a woman might be treated with some sort of “sugar, you don’t need that…” is a hardware store or a car shop. Again, I hold my point – LET IT ROLL OFF! Maybe I’m more worried about my wallet than my pride, but if I walk in somewhere and I’m not getting the service I want, I turn around and demand it. Have I been treated like an inferior person in the places I named above? Yes. Again – prove you are smarter than they think you are. Insist on the things you want and need. Educate yourself about your car so that you don’t get swindled – there’s a stereotype about girls getting shafted at garages because the grease monkeys assume we don’t know what we’re after. Not true by the way – they respond to ignorance from any sex. These are just examples, maybe she has others that prove her point and would change my mind, but I find this to be sheer ridiculousness.
3) I run every other day, if possible. I have a mile circuit that I make four times. It threads along the cusp where the poor section of town and the rich historic section collide. I do this all year ‘round, all times of day (including after full dark) in all types of clothing, and I’ve been doing it for 2 years. Do you know how many times I’ve been jeered/honked at? Five. I can count it on my hand. It’s jarring – yeah, it makes me jump out of my skin when I’m not expecting it and concentrating on my exercise. Do I take extra pre-cautions when I run after dark? You betcha. I carry a knife. I keep my music lower so that I can hear footsteps behind me. I stay extra alert of shadows and stick to the main path, especially because both streets are not well lit. I have never, not once, had a problem. Maybe I’m lucky. But I think I cannot be the only woman who finds taking a damn run outside, or walking places by myself, to not be an endurance sport. But if you’re going to use that analogy, guess what Eil? There are ways to protect yourself. Get a gun. Carry a knife. Carry pepper spray. Learn self-defense. The people who assault women are not the average men on the street suddenly turned into maniacs. They are CRIMINALS who therefore do not abide by the law, never mind decency standards.
4) Let’s go back to jeering – you know why women don’t yell things out (actually, some do: I live near a fire station and when they run by the things some women in my city yell are obscene)? It’s because we’ve been taught it’s unladylike to express physical attraction out loud. Not because we’re less hormonal. We say things that are just as degrading and objective, but we do it in an “inside voice”. Let’s not have a double standard here. Here I might agree the culture changes the way people act, but don’t let’s pretend that it’s because women are somehow ‘better’ than men because as the “non-norm” we’ve been taught something different.

And just in general, if we’re discussing the differences between men and women, exactly how many double standards do we all hold? I could name MANY ways we “gently” demean each other. Women act like men are idiots and can’t follow directions. Men call us irrational. We could go on and on.

Great, so you want to blame society and culture for the way things are? Women are a part of that equation and you best believe they better step up if they want things to change. All this hooting and hollering gets us no where. Start from the ground up: don’t demoralize your sons – teach them respect for themselves and others. If they respect themselves, they’ll want to be respected by others, including women. They’ll want to be attractive to men or women who are also respectful. Teach your daughters not to fear but to protect themselves and to respect themselves as well. They are not “powerful” because they are man or woman. They are HUMAN. Teach both sexes that they are allowed to do whatever they damn well please – and this is a great lesson that kids should be taught anyway, because I think it would alleviate some of the educational bullshit we go through too – no more of this “you should be this or that” – expose your kids to the true humungous variety of jobs we have out there, and do not by any means tell them they can or can’t do it based on their sex, or race, or religion.

Somewhere in here was mentioned that women are supposedly less likely to be atheist because they identify with spiritual…something to do with being more irrational because they have children to take care of. Do you think somehow that men who have their heads on straight love their children any less? In any case, this is a bullshit excuse as well. If you allow yourself to be put in the position of primary caretaker, then you have all the power in the world to shape your children to be something better and brighter and stronger. You want us to stop thinking just of ourselves? We should! Start by thinking of the future and how you can REALLY change culture. Once people are our ages, it’s hard to convince them to think another way, but if you put aside your pride and this “me, me, me” attitude, you have a chance to filter it out with subsequent generations. THAT is how you eliminate race and gender problems, and I’d say religious ones too, because fuck knows how many “inequalities” sprang from THAT mess.

Things are already changing. We’re further along than our mothers now. Our daughters will be further along than us. I see women in jobs that men traditionally have had, doing them well – dirty jobs too. Are we finished with the transformation into equality? Fuck no. But this is blame placing is no way to go about it. Accept that you were wrong in the past and fucking move forward already.

[fr0d0]

1. You replied my question of "why don't we judge regardless of race?" with "because we don't".

No she didn't.

2. Chanting outside a dorm room to humiliate girls is something I've never done, nor do I condone. What does this have to do with my question? Irrelevant.

It's exactly relevant as an example of the problem.

3. So you assume I have privilege simply because I don't agree with you. Double standard.

No we're (I'd imagine) all privileged in some way. No need to play the victim.

4. I never assumed everyone is treated the same way, nor did I even imply that. Useless rhetoric.

Repetition is a sin. Noted.

5. You not being able to go into a store isn't my issue. That's an issue for law enforcement, lawyer, or a human resources department. I don't condone such behavior, and it does not speak for me.

Yeah you're fine Jack fuck everyone else?

6. You assume I don't deal with harrassment and even say I participate in ogling women by yelling obscenities. I have never done that, nor do I wish to. Double standard.

Harassment isn't the subject, sexual harassment is. You'd think any harassment would sensitise you to the plight of others. Apparently not?

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7. Your last analogy is so ridiculous that I don't even know where to begin. First, being a woman isn't an extreme sport. If it is,it's in the same sentiment as being a man is an extreme sport, or being a cat is an extreme sport. It makes zero sense because you don't have any other point of reference on which to base the claim. You see inequalities, and automatically assume X is harder than Y across the board because I've experienced Z. Also, please tell me, if you can take steps to protect yourself while bungee jumping, and the steps fail, would that be grounds for victim blaming?Your writing seems as if you're blocking off what is actually said, constructing a straw man, knocking it down, then condemning others when they don't agree that your argument holds any merit.

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Nice blanking of the subject. It would make you sound reasonable if you tried to work with the analogy and address it, rather than empty ridicule.

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8. You assume culture is bent around my "kind". Do you understand that identifying something so assuming, not to mention erroneous, paints a picture of blatant racism and sexism? Do you not realize that by saying "race is an issue", you're making race an issue? If you want to promote equality, you have to realize it's not an on/off switch that is obtained by adopting a certain ideology. It's gained only through experience with different individuals which ends up in the realization that we are all essentially the same and capable of the same wonderful and horrific things. You want to rant about how you're being oppressed? Go ahead, but do it directly to your oppressors (The ones who harass you in the store, the ones that cat call and sexually abuse)- don't throw blanket statements over people when it doesn't apply to them. Throughout this conversation, you've managed to assume much of my life, none of which is actually true, then carried a smugness with you as if you've actually proved a point. What you have demonstrated is that you're incapable or at least unwilling to judge a person by what their actions and words are - and put people in categories where you can apply inflammatory straw man arguments.
You want to look for bigotry? Look in the mirror.

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Yes it's safe and well justified to assume culture has a male bias. You're really clutching at straws suggesting otherwise. To insult you... that seems like the norm for you.

The accusation lands squarely at your door tav, having displayed bigoted attitudes on this forum.

[Cego_Colher]

Also would love, just for myself, examples of shops she can’t get service in. You see, the only places I’ve ever walked into where a woman might be treated with some sort of “sugar, you don’t need that…” is a hardware...

I've never gotten that in a hardware store. last time I went in one I knew exactly where I needed to go to get what I want. (It's for art, however) my boyfriend was in fact a few steps behind me. he does that far too often— walks just behind me that it, hopefully it's just cuz he didn't know where to go. (when I notice I say "you're not my manservant.") and usually, including that time the cashier I go to is female and usually it just happens to be the closest or open check-out.
of course I'd be shit out of my mind to go to a garage, but I can't even drive. There is one around here that my boyfriend will go to if his car is broken, run by a woman named Pam and I just think it's badass that she can/will/wants to do that, so I call her "The Lady." I know that's kinda weird of me.

(sorry, I think I just have I need to type lots today syndrome.)

[Shinylight]

1. You replied my question of "why don't we judge regardless of race?" with "because we don't".

No she didn't.

Yes she did

Why can't we just take the words and actions of all people on equal ground regardless of race?

Because we don't take the words and actions of all people on equal ground regardless of race and gender.