Was Jesus' sacrifice really a sacrifice at all?

[chatpilot]

There is no such thing as free will with God, it's more like his will or else! So how do you interpret that as free will? That is more like an ultimatum, serve me or die and suffer eternally in hell. That makes him an even bigger dick in my book. By human standards God is no different than Hitler or any other psychotic tyrant that has ever walked the Earth. Free will is letting you as an individual do as you please and not suffer any consequences for doing so. There are plenty of good people who lives long and fruitful lives and they do it completely without God.

I give up on the whole Adam and Eve thing since you don't seem to get it, so just keep on enjoying your twisted beliefs and delusions Godschild. I learned long ago that talking to a Christian is like talking to the wall, it just stares back at you blankly like a deer in the head lights of a car.

[ib.me.ub]

ib.me.ub wrote: imagine if god wasn't so nice after all.....

The biblical god is a dick by my standards, that is if he exists which in my opinion is a huge if.

You know there is a tutorial for posting quotes if you need a hand.

[chatpilot]

Not necessary ib.me.ub I have always done it this way it is just a force of habit I guess.

[Minimalist]

Yes they were innocent but not stupid as you would have them to be,

I am going to resist the temptation, G-C. You owe me one.

[Captain Scarlet]

There is no such thing as free will with God, it's more like his will or else! So how do you interpret that as free will? That is more like an ultimatum, serve me or die and suffer eternally in hell. That makes him an even bigger dick in my book. By human standards God is no different than Hitler or any other psychotic tyrant that has ever walked the Earth. Free will is letting you as an individual do as you please and not suffer any consequences for doing so. There are plenty of good people who lives long and fruitful lives and they do it completely without God.

I give up on the whole Adam and Eve thing since you don't seem to get it, so just keep on enjoying your twisted beliefs and delusions Godschild. I learned long ago that talking to a Christian is like talking to the wall, it just stares back at you blankly like a deer in the head lights of a car.

I agree Chat. Theists have never reconciled god with freewill. If you are a fundamentalist you are told, in the only part of the bible that an ALL powerful being authored, that you are to obey 10 rules (amongst the 613 in total) else suffer for it. Then we are told humankind has freewill. I'm not sure about you but if I beleived an ALL powerful being told me not to do 10 things, I probably wouldn't exercise my frewill to say envy my next door neighbours donkey (commandment 10). I have never been able to see how any theist reconciles this with free will. Of course the other issue is why would the creator of the entire universe with 4 bn galaxies each containing 4 bn stars and the fine tuner of life and everything think it important that we don't lust after donkeys.....still not our problem!

[theophilus]

Now remember your bible states that they had no knowledge of good or evil so tell me my good Christian, how were they to know that eating of the tree was a bad thing?

They were told not to eat the fruit of the tree so they at least knew that much about good and evil, and it was all they needed for the situation they were in.

Also, they were tricked into it by the serpent whom God never told them nothing about.

Only Eve was deceived. First Timothy 2:14 says,

Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.

Because Adam wasn't deceived but sinned deliberately it was through him and not through Eve that sin entered the world.

Sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin.
Romans 5:12

Well if something undesirable was about to happen and you could neither prevent it nor did you know about it, you are of course blameless. But if you did know it would happen and were able to help prevent it, you may carry some responsibility for allowing it to happen.

God allowed it because he was going to use it to bring about a greater good.

The plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things, so that through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places.
Epheisians 3:9,10

[Captain Scarlet]

Well if something undesirable was about to happen and you could neither prevent it nor did you know about it, you are of course blameless. But if you did know it would happen and were able to help prevent it, you may carry some responsibility for allowing it to happen.

God allowed it because he was going to use it to bring about a greater good.

Whilst that is logically consistent with evil, freewill and an all good god, it fails if it can be demonstrated that god could have bought about a better outcome. But according to the scriptures of your religion, the god character is capable of realising possible worlds were there is no suffering and people have freely come to beleive and worship him. Heaven and Eden to name 2 examples. Therefore god can realise a better outcome, does not have to allow the greater good to emerge through suffering and thus that argument fails.

[Minimalist]

Even lots of early xtians thought it was bullshit.

http://www.earlychristianhistory.info/docet.html

Docetism is easily explained: It is a belief that Jesus Christ did not actually die, and therefore was never resurrected bodily. A number of Christian theologies have arrived at this conclusion, in different ways, so Docetism comes in a number of forms.

When 'orthodox' xtianity emerged they suppressed the docetists by slaughtering them in the name of their all-loving god.

Praise fucking jesus!

[Godscreated]

Well if something undesirable was about to happen and you could neither prevent it nor did you know about it, you are of course blameless. But if you did know it would happen and were able to help prevent it, you may carry some responsibility for allowing it to happen.

God allowed it because he was going to use it to bring about a greater good.

Whilst that is logically consistent with evil, freewill and an all good god, it fails if it can be demonstrated that god could have bought about a better outcome. But according to the scriptures of your religion, the god character is capable of realising possible worlds were there is no suffering and people have freely come to beleive and worship him. Heaven and Eden to name 2 examples. Therefore god can realise a better outcome, does not have to allow the greater good to emerge through suffering and thus that argument fails.

You are absolutely wrong, in Eden there was suffering, when Adam and Eve disobeyed God He found them hiding from Him. When Lucifer tried to over throw God and take His throne there was suffering, God threw Lucifer and 1/3rd of the angels out of Heaven. So according to scriptures from creation till this very day there has been no perfect place, and only one perfect Life outside of heaven. So Theophilus has made a true statment, because as of today no perfect place has existed since creation.

[Minimalist]

There was no "eden." Please stop pretending that your fairy tales are true.