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Current time: 16th October 2017, 20:04

Poll: Does the end ever justify the means?
This poll is closed.
Yes, the end does always/mostly justify the means.
30.77%
4 30.77%
No, the end does not always/mostly justify the means.
38.46%
5 38.46%
the ting go.. skrrra pap pap ka ka ka skidiki pap pap and a pu pu drrrr boom SKYAAA du du ku ku tun
30.77%
4 30.77%
Total 13 vote(s) 100%
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Does the end ever justify the means?
#31
RE: Does the end ever justify the means?
It depends. If the means is an inherently evil act, no. If the act is bad only depending on the circumstances, yes.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly." 

-walsh
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#32
RE: Does the end ever justify the means?
(11th October 2017, 13:06)Anomalocaris Wrote:
(11th October 2017, 12:55)Cthulhu Dreaming Wrote: No.

The end:  World peace
The means: Universal genocide

QED

That is a particularly contrived example using an arbitrarily narrow view of “end”.

I'm pretty sure he was joking about the Q.E.D. lol.
Steven Wilson Wrote:A good impression of myself
Not much to conceal
I'm saying nothing
But I'm saying nothing with feel

I simply am not here
No way I...
Shut up, be happy
Stop whining please

Because of who we are
We react in mock surprise
The curse of "there must be more"
So don't breathe here,
Don't leave your bags

*
But am I here?
It's kind of hard to tell
I do a good impression of myself
But what's normal now anyhow?
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#33
RE: Does the end ever justify the means?
(11th October 2017, 16:14)Mister Agenda Wrote: What are the other options for justifying means, besides ends?

The theory that it's the ends that matter is called consequentailism. Or in other words, it's the consequences that matter. In this sense the so called 'means' would also be an end and the only time the means doesn't justify the end is when that specific means (that specific consequence) is more negative than the end (the consequence) that that means (consequence) fails to justify.

I agree extremely strongly with this:

Quote:Everyone knows—or thinks he knows—that consequentialism fails to capture much of what we value. This is true almost by definition, because, as Ryan observes, “serious competing theories of value and morality exist.”

But if the categorical imperative (one of Kant’s foundational contributions to deontology, or rule-based ethics) reliably made everyone miserable, no one would defend it as an ethical principle. Similarly, if virtues such as generosity, wisdom, and honesty caused nothing but pain and chaos, no sane person could consider them good. In my view, deontologists and virtue ethicists smuggle the good consequences of their ethics into the conversation from the start.

Source:

https://www.samharris.org/blog/item/clar...-landscape

My position is "Forget all this means/ends lark.... it's the consequences that matter. Regardless of if that's the final consequence or the earlier consequences".

For example, in the example CD gives where the final consequence is world peace but the means is universal genocide... the reason why universal genocide isn't worth world peace is because the immediate consequences of universal genocide are so bad that they're not worth going through to reach the final consequence of world peace.
Steven Wilson Wrote:A good impression of myself
Not much to conceal
I'm saying nothing
But I'm saying nothing with feel

I simply am not here
No way I...
Shut up, be happy
Stop whining please

Because of who we are
We react in mock surprise
The curse of "there must be more"
So don't breathe here,
Don't leave your bags

*
But am I here?
It's kind of hard to tell
I do a good impression of myself
But what's normal now anyhow?
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#34
RE: Does the end ever justify the means?
Some ends are so stinky; so their means are stinky like them.
It gets pretty simple: take personal glory. That is one stinky goal. The correct thing would be "I want personal glory ONLY if others didn't suffer because of me".

That we call "a goal surrounded by constraints". But if you're at that level already; the means you choose would be always cut in half by the power of constraints.

So ends justifying the means; is a big no no for me. No; nothing justifies shit. Poop stinks no matter what. And a person who likes to go the shitty way, will get a permanent stain marking him like a freak forever and ever.
Just believe me. Your face, clothes, the way you speak, the money you have, the things you own, the car you drive, nothing of that defines you; only your actions do, only, that's your worth. Every action can be one of two: good or bad. That is you. Don't allow anybody to fool you into self-hating because of stupid standards, that sidetracks you from the main categories that define you.
-Everybody is equal
-You;re not better than others by birth
-You're not your birth marks and scars
-You're your deeds
-AtlasS
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#35
RE: Does the end ever justify the means?
I've had some overlook and recon missions while in the Marines that didn't roll out as intended. Some times the ends absolutely justifies the means.
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