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RE: Christian genesis
October 15, 2017 at 11:41 am
(This post was last modified: October 15, 2017 at 11:44 am by notimportant1234.)
(October 15, 2017 at 11:30 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: (October 15, 2017 at 9:28 am)notimportant1234 Wrote: But , from what I know , God gave him everything in the garden of Eden and forbid him to take the apple because he didn't need it. Adam taking the apple shows that imperfection( in a way ) was already there.God could have wanted to see if man can exist whitout the knowledge of good and evil.
Suppose I told you not to stand in the middle of a busy street so you don't get run over, but I phrased it as, 'Neef norp de glorp flagnel.' You would have no idea what I meant. You go and stand in the middle of the street, get run over, and as punishment for doing what I told you not to do but couldn't understand I chop off both your legs.
This is precisely the case with the Eden myth - God punished Adam for a wrong act, but Adam couldn't conceive of the concept of wrongness until he committed the act for which he was exiled.
God didn't forbid Adam to take the apple because he didn't need it, he simply forbade him, with no explanation.
God (according to the manual) knows everything. The notion that God wanted to 'see if man could exist without the knowledge of good and evil' is ludicrous on the face of it. God knew Adam was going to disobey from the moment he was created. This is akin to building a house, knowing all the while that you're going to deliberately burn it to the ground.
God myths (the one here is no exception) are nothing more than the attempts of primitive peoples to explain why everything sucks, no more or less to be believed than the folk tales of any other culture.
Boru
(October 15, 2017 at 11:27 am)notimportant1234 Wrote: I don't see why ?
Because this: Omniscient means 'knows everything'. In the case of God's relationship to the universe, it means that God knows everything that is ever going to happen. What is more, God has always had this knowledge. The inevitable consequences is that there is nothing I can do that God hasn't foreseen, no choice I can make that God hasn't always known about.
Where then is free will? If I'm trying to decide which shoe to put on first, or which hand to stir my coffee with, these 'decisions' are part and parcel of what God knows. The only way I can have free will is to act in a way that God hasn't foreseen - in other words, to have the ability to do something that God didn't know was going to happen. If I can do that, then God can't be omniscient.
Boru
Okey , God knows what you are going to do , but doesn't prevent you from doing it , that is free will
(October 15, 2017 at 11:40 am)Whateverist Wrote: (October 15, 2017 at 9:57 am)notimportant1234 Wrote: Hmm, whitout the biblical context , that is wise to stay by the side of the teacher ,although you don t really need him , things will go a lot faster with him around.
Faster and easier, kind of like the advantage you enjoy by subscribing to Christ dying for your sins. So much more convenient. I'd say for the lazy-inclined, getting to be a sheep in the care of a shepherd or an infant at his God's teat is a real godsend.
Okey , than don't go to school and learn everything by yourself , lets see how much does it take you ?
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RE: Christian genesis
October 15, 2017 at 11:45 am
(October 15, 2017 at 11:41 am)notimportant1234 Wrote: Okay , God knows what you are going to do , but doesn't prevent you from doing it , that is free will
Is that really consistent with a deist position?
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RE: Christian genesis
October 15, 2017 at 11:47 am
(October 15, 2017 at 11:41 am)notimportant1234 Wrote: (October 15, 2017 at 11:30 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Suppose I told you not to stand in the middle of a busy street so you don't get run over, but I phrased it as, 'Neef norp de glorp flagnel.' You would have no idea what I meant. You go and stand in the middle of the street, get run over, and as punishment for doing what I told you not to do but couldn't understand I chop off both your legs.
This is precisely the case with the Eden myth - God punished Adam for a wrong act, but Adam couldn't conceive of the concept of wrongness until he committed the act for which he was exiled.
God didn't forbid Adam to take the apple because he didn't need it, he simply forbade him, with no explanation.
God (according to the manual) knows everything. The notion that God wanted to 'see if man could exist without the knowledge of good and evil' is ludicrous on the face of it. God knew Adam was going to disobey from the moment he was created. This is akin to building a house, knowing all the while that you're going to deliberately burn it to the ground.
God myths (the one here is no exception) are nothing more than the attempts of primitive peoples to explain why everything sucks, no more or less to be believed than the folk tales of any other culture.
Boru
Because this: Omniscient means 'knows everything'. In the case of God's relationship to the universe, it means that God knows everything that is ever going to happen. What is more, God has always had this knowledge. The inevitable consequences is that there is nothing I can do that God hasn't foreseen, no choice I can make that God hasn't always known about.
Where then is free will? If I'm trying to decide which shoe to put on first, or which hand to stir my coffee with, these 'decisions' are part and parcel of what God knows. The only way I can have free will is to act in a way that God hasn't foreseen - in other words, to have the ability to do something that God didn't know was going to happen. If I can do that, then God can't be omniscient.
Boru
Okey , God knows what you are going to do , but doesn't prevent you from doing it , that is free will
Nope. In order for God to know what I am going to do, I have to do what God knows. The stipulation that God is omniscient prevents my acting in any non-predetermined way.
How is God 'preventing' my doing something free will? If God prevents an action on my part, my will is even less free.
Boru
‘But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods or no gods. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.’ - Thomas Jefferson
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RE: Christian genesis
October 15, 2017 at 12:05 pm
(October 15, 2017 at 10:38 am)notimportant1234 Wrote: (October 15, 2017 at 10:30 am)Khemikal Wrote: Who's talking about god existing? The deity of the myth simply cannot be a case example of moral perfection, nor is it an example of a deity that knows more about morality or any other thing..than we do.
If i understood right , that is the case because the deity of the myth can't be perfetly moral because it is our design of it , wich comes from a imperfect moral mind that can't create for sure that perfection because it can't realise where it is wrong :-?
You're overthinking it. We could have come up with a better myth...in many cases we have. In this case, we didn't.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Christian genesis
October 15, 2017 at 12:19 pm
Modern science has conclusively proved that there was never a single "Adam and Eve" progenitor couple in the human line. There was never any Garden of Eden. There was never any "original sin", and most certainly not an apple. Therefore, there was no need for any sacrifice of any sort to expunge that original sin.
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RE: Christian genesis
October 15, 2017 at 12:22 pm
Quote:What are your opinions on this ?
Total bullshit from the start.
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RE: Christian genesis
October 15, 2017 at 12:48 pm
(This post was last modified: October 15, 2017 at 12:50 pm by GUBU.)
(October 15, 2017 at 10:16 am)notimportant1234 Wrote: I'm going in a Deist direction.
Still religion idiot.
(October 15, 2017 at 11:27 am)notimportant1234 Wrote: (October 15, 2017 at 11:23 am)mh.brewer Wrote: If god is omniscient, then free will is an illusion.
I don't see why ?
Because being all knowing means having perfect knowledge of all future actions. If god is all knowing he will know what I am going to do in five minutes time, and what my great^50 times grand-nephew will do in 120,000 years time, without a single doubt. Therefore neither I nor my indirect descendant will have a choice in our actions, hence no free will.
Simple enough for you.
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RE: Christian genesis
October 15, 2017 at 1:02 pm
(October 15, 2017 at 11:27 am)notimportant1234 Wrote: (October 15, 2017 at 11:23 am)mh.brewer Wrote: If god is omniscient, then free will is an illusion.
I don't see why ?
Why am I not surprised.
If god knows everything that is going to happen (that whole omniscient thing), down to you personally, second to second, you have no free will. You only think that you do.
I don't have an anger problem, I have an idiot problem.
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RE: Christian genesis
October 15, 2017 at 1:07 pm
(This post was last modified: October 15, 2017 at 1:08 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
A clock is similarly ignorant of it's own operation. One wonders, if there were a sentient clock, would it also imagine that it decided the time was 3:00am?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Christian genesis
October 15, 2017 at 4:31 pm
(This post was last modified: October 15, 2017 at 4:42 pm by notimportant1234.)
(October 15, 2017 at 12:48 pm)Tazzycorn Wrote: (October 15, 2017 at 10:16 am)notimportant1234 Wrote: I'm going in a Deist direction.
Still religion idiot.
(October 15, 2017 at 11:27 am)notimportant1234 Wrote: I don't see why ?
Because being all knowing means having perfect knowledge of all future actions. If god is all knowing he will know what I am going to do in five minutes time, and what my great^50 times grand-nephew will do in 120,000 years time, without a single doubt. Therefore neither I nor my indirect descendant will have a choice in our actions, hence no free will.
Simple enough for you.
I know deism is a religion , I just sayed that it was the religion that i'm inclining too .If i don't say " I think i am compatible with the deist religion" you can't comprehend that i answered your question about my religion ?
If you know more about a domain doesn't make you smarter so quit it with the arrogance.
The only purpose that i have for this forum is to gather philosophical and religious views and informations , don't have the time to concentrate on that at the moment. 
(October 15, 2017 at 1:02 pm)mh.brewer Wrote: (October 15, 2017 at 11:27 am)notimportant1234 Wrote: I don't see why ?
Why am I not surprised.
If god knows everything that is going to happen (that whole omniscient thing), down to you personally, second to second, you have no free will. You only think that you do.
Why aren't you surprised of what ? I don't feel the need to guess what he ment by that when I can ask him directly.
From that statement it can result that with or without God we don't relly have free will.
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