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RE: Atheists don't realize asking for evidence of God is a strawman
November 9, 2017 at 3:08 pm
(This post was last modified: November 9, 2017 at 3:16 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Let's take a look at two different claims. Bopth of which can be found in magic book, both of which people believe on religious grounds, one of which is not subject to scientific scrutiny...the other, is.
-God strongly dislikes a lying tongue.
This claim is not amenable to scientific scrutiny, we do not possess a godometer which can measure what god likes or dislikes.
-God created the first breeding pair of human beings, and by their sin death entered the world.
This claim -is- amenable to scientific scrutiny. Death predates human beings, and there never was an original breeding pair of human beings.
Which of these claims is more important to christianity, and what can be said about the second, falsifiable and falsified claim..if one believes in the first on religious grounds?
Food for thought.
(November 9, 2017 at 3:06 pm)pool the matey Wrote: All I'm saying is context matters.
Let's dial it back twenty pages then..and you can post that, and only that.
Pool, that's not what you're saying, that's not all that you're saying, and it has never been what you're saying. The claim that this is all you are saying is subject to scientific scrutiny. If that;s all you are saying...I would expect to find little to nothing else...if I searched back through your posts. If you are saying more, or even saying something entirely different...I should be able to find that by searching back through your posts as well.
Do we need to run the experiment, or do you know what the conclusion will be? Notice, in all of it... you never claimed to be doing science, nor was I ever under the impression that you were.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Atheists don't realize asking for evidence of God is a strawman
November 9, 2017 at 3:12 pm
(November 9, 2017 at 3:06 pm)pool the matey Wrote: (November 9, 2017 at 2:56 pm)Cthulhu Dreaming Wrote: Or, how about if someone claims Superman exists, and tells me the evidence can be found in Superman #1.
What does the claimaint have to do to make a convincing case that their claim is true?
All I'm saying is context matters. When you say "superman exists" in what context do you mean? If you mean in a comic book context then all you have to do is scream "help me superman" and jump out of a window or top of a building or something and you'll get the proof you want. But if you're just telling me "superman exists" there is no context there, when a Christian says "God exists" he means that in a religious context and we know that within that context he is right.
How in the hell is he right?!
"The last superstition of the human mind is the superstition that religion in itself is a good thing." - Samuel Porter Putnam
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RE: Atheists don't realize asking for evidence of God is a strawman
November 9, 2017 at 3:15 pm
Good lord... Khem it's a discussion we're past that point, CD asked me a question and when I said "all I'm saying is context matters" that response was an answer to his question and within the context of his question... "context matters"
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RE: Atheists don't realize asking for evidence of God is a strawman
November 9, 2017 at 3:16 pm
Pool, go discuss with Little rik  he might understand you.
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RE: Atheists don't realize asking for evidence of God is a strawman
November 9, 2017 at 3:18 pm
(November 9, 2017 at 3:16 pm)LastPoet Wrote: Pool, go discuss with Little rik he might understand you.
Sheesh whatever lp
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RE: Atheists don't realize asking for evidence of God is a strawman
November 9, 2017 at 3:19 pm
This is some truly weapons-grade nonsense.
In every country and every age, the priest had been hostile to Liberty.
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RE: Atheists don't realize asking for evidence of God is a strawman
November 9, 2017 at 3:21 pm
(November 9, 2017 at 1:35 pm)pool the matey Wrote: The Gentleman Bastard Wrote:The real strawman here is saying that only scientific claims require evidence. Any positive claim requires evidence. While some claims may require a trivial amount of evidence, others have a much higher bar.
I'm not saying "only scientific claims require evidence" (it's part of what I'm saying but it's not the whole thing)
This a TLDR of my argument:
Quote:So my argument is this:
* Only scientific works or works that claim that they can withstand scientific scrutiny can be subject to scientific scrutiny.
* Bible doesn't claim it's a scientific work nor does it claim that it can withstand scientific scrutiny.
* So if someone asks for scientific evidence for God it also carries a implicit claim that Bible has claimed it is a scientific work or that it can withstand scientific scrutiny. This implicit claim is what I called the straw.
Your argument fails because we're not asking for scientific evidence. We're asking for any evidence at all. Something no theist has been able to provide.
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RE: Atheists don't realize asking for evidence of God is a strawman
November 9, 2017 at 3:21 pm
Actually "context matters" is not even a new concept.....
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RE: Atheists don't realize asking for evidence of God is a strawman
November 9, 2017 at 3:22 pm
(This post was last modified: November 9, 2017 at 3:23 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(November 9, 2017 at 3:15 pm)pool the matey Wrote: Good lord... Khem it's a discussion we're past that point, CD asked me a question and when I said "all I'm saying is context matters" that response was an answer to his question and within the context of his question... "context matters"
No, we're not passed that point until you can acknowledge what points we've passed. Does context matter? Apparently not to your conjecture...as the context of magic book certainly isn't science...and yet the contents of magic book, as the content of your own comments in that regard.... -are- subject to scientific inquiry.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Atheists don't realize asking for evidence of God is a strawman
November 9, 2017 at 3:23 pm
(November 9, 2017 at 1:27 pm)pool the matey Wrote: (November 9, 2017 at 1:25 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: I'd like to take this a step even further. If your position is, "I can believe anything I want based on faith alone,' then you arent even participating in a debate. What can't a person believe on faith? I can say, "I believe there is a dragon in my basement. I have no evidence, but I have faith, and that's enough for me." Who can argue with that? It's a non-starter.
pool Wrote:So my argument is this:
* Only scientific works or works that claim that they can withstand scientific scrutiny can be subject to scientific scrutiny.
* Bible doesn't claim it's a scientific work nor does it claim that it can withstand scientific scrutiny.
* So if someone asks for scientific evidence for God it also carries a implicit claim that Bible has claimed it is a scientific work or that it can withstand scientific scrutiny. This implicit claim is what I called the straw.
I see your point but like I said it's just a gotcha. It's just in stock to use against someone that use a similar gotcha instead of engaging in a conversation.
It's not a 'gotcha.' It's an admission that you have no argument.
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