Please describe your god's loyalty reward scheme.

[Succubus]

Well I for one would appreciate some enlightenment.

Liar! Your intent is to mock.

Who wrote the Canon gospels?

[Aroura]

Nope. My church doesn't water baptize, so my children haven't been baptized. Doesn't worry me a bit. If they as adults decided to get baptized, that wouldn't bother me either. See my earlier post on things being in God's hands. God will save those whom he will save. The point isn't for us to find one precise, correct ritual.

---

So, you don't believe that our choices are what define our destination, but instead that we are basically predestined for one location or another?

P.S Dang it I messed up your quote, sorry. Ok, there I think I fixed it.

[John V]

So, you don't believe that our choices are what define our destination, but instead that we are basically predestined for one location or another?

No, I believe that one needs to choose God to be saved. The point is that that choice is a matter of the heart, not of precise ritual.

[Brian37]

I accept the rapture doctrine, but I doubt it will play out as some books/movies have it. 

Jesus asked, When the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth? This seems apparently rhetorical, i.e. he's saying there won't be much Christian faith on the earth in the end, and so I don't think the rapture will involve huge numbers of people.

So you believe in magic. If you go to Vegas you can watch Penn and Teller put a woman in a box and make her disappear too. 

I really hope for your sake you don't waste your entire life believing that garbage. NOW PLEASE don't come back at me with crap claiming I am just being mean or picking on you personally.

I am saying YOUR LOGIC stinks. There is no evidence one bit that humans anywhere in the world, in our entire species history, that we survive our own deaths, not one bit. 

The worst part of that fantasy is that you don't seem to understand that story as an idea puts all outsiders in as pawns, garbage, to be thrown away like trash, also at the expense of destroying the entire planet. That doesn't come across to me as loving or kind, but selfish and cruel.

So most of the population of the plant's 7 billion will suffer if we are going to pretend that your deity exists?  And again, you think your religion is the only one to claim a "final chapter"?

How about accepting reality? There  is no Jesus, no Allah no Yahweh. You will not be beamed up to the starship Jeususprise by Captain God. If you are not swayed by the promises of the Koran or threats of the Koran, or their ideas of heaven or hell, and you are not swayed by the claims of Hindu reincarnation, then try to understand that your biblical transporter story sounds just as silly to us.

[I_am_not_mafia]

We can pray to Him. So, "talk to Him" in that sense. But obviously we don't hear back and can't have a back and forth conversation.  

I'm hardly surprised that you don't hear back.

I can't understand how theists can notice that God's presence is completely indistinguishable from his absence and yet they still believe.

I find it very interesting that believers can't tell the difference between the voice of their god and their own conscious internal monologue. Where does one end and the other begin? Do they think that everyone else who worships a different god or who is an atheist don't also have an internal monologue?

Converts are particularly interesting in this regard because they can compare before and after and see that there was no difference, yet at some point part of their internal monologue becomes their god's voice.

Could a simpler explanation be that believing your god is talking to you and guiding you gives you more confident in the decisions that you make?

[Neo-Scholastic]

Wyrd is weird.

Maybe one day you will read your favorite ethnocentric Middle Eastern Jewish religious fairy tale.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...ersion=KJV

Revelation 20:13-15, Revelation 21:1 (KJV) ="13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea."

Indeed. The one of my favorites as well, so rich with symbols and allusions.

[Aroura]

So, you don't believe that our choices are what define our destination, but instead that we are basically predestined for one location or another?

No, I believe that one needs to choose God to be saved. The point is that that choice is a matter of the heart, not of precise ritual.

Are you only OK with the different possible paths all because you believe you have chosen the correct path, though?  

Also, I want to be clear about your answer to CL.  You do not think most people who are not exposed to the word of Jesus still get into heaven.  Is that correct?  My question then is, why are they going to be punished when they didn't get the same choice, just for "inventing a false religion?"

Lastly, is it your belief that only belief matters, and not other actions/choices in this life? What about harmful acts to others, or even the 10 commandments? 

For instance, if there is a man in Nepal who is a Buddhist for life, and he spends his life taking care of the poor street children, finding them food and medicine, even going without himself sometimes so they are taken care of, he does not accept Jesus (or God), he's destined for hell.  But a person who truly accepts Jesus, but gets drunk and kills a whole family driving, or beats his wife because he has temper issues he can't seem to deal with, he's destined for heaven?

It doesn't bother you that other people who call themselves Christian, for instance, would entirely reverse that...and would you still consider those people true Christians?

(Reminds me of a boy I dated in my late teens.  His gran was evangelical, and she did not like him dating me because I was Catholic, which she viewed as basically pagan as we have Mary and all those Saints put just a step below Jesus.  I was not a true Christian in her eyes.)

---

One of the things I'm most fascinated by is how different groups of believers rarely agree on anything.
Is life a test? Some adamantly yes, some adamantly no. Some not sure.
Is there a literal heaven and hell? Same, some yes, some no, some not sure.
How to get into heaven? Depends on who you ask.
Can non-believers get into heaven? Yes, no, maybe.
Are parts of the bible allegorical or factual? Some parts, maybe all parts, dependson who you ask.
And all of this can vary even within sects, because people feel more free nowadays to reject some parts of their own faith, insert what makes the most sense to them personally, then claim it with any confidence at all. "Well, I think...." That's nice, but that is't what your faith teaches, what's in the bible, etc.
And on and on and on.

And these are all people who band together and claim to believe in the same God. They have no more in common with each other, belief wise, than we do with them. /Ironic

[John V]

Are you only OK with the different possible paths all because you believe you have chosen the correct path, though?  

Not sure what you mean by "OK with."

Also, I want to be clear about your answer to CL.  You do not think most people who are not exposed to the word of Jesus still get into heaven.  Is that correct?

Since I believe that life begins at conception and I subscribe to an age of accountability doctrine, most people go to heaven. You're only considering adults.

My question then is, why are they going to be punished when they didn't get the same choice, just for "inventing a false religion?"

First, they're not punished for just inventing a false religion. As the Romans 2 passage shows, they're punished for all their sins.

Second, you're using a general sense of fairness. When you consider it as matters of justice and grace, there's no need for God to offer the same grace to everyone, as grace is by definition unmerited.

Third, it can be argued that everyone gets a final shot at accepting salvation after death. I haven't studied it enough to have a firm opinion. Check 1 Peter 3: 18-20 if you're interested.

Lastly, is it your belief that only belief matters, and not other actions/choices in this life? What about harmful acts to others, or even the 10 commandments? 

Nope.
We're condemned for our sins, which include both actions and thoughts.
We're saved by confession and belief.
We earn eternal rewards through our actions here in this life.

For instance, if there is a man in Nepal who is a Buddhist for life, and he spends his life taking care of the poor street children, finding them food and medicine, even going without himself sometimes so they are taken care of, he does not accept Jesus (or God), he's destined for hell.  But a person who truly accepts Jesus, but gets drunk and kills a whole family driving, or beats his wife because he has temper issues he can't seem to deal with, he's destined for heaven?

If the man in Nepal has heard of Jesus and rejected him, then yes, that's correct.

It doesn't bother you that other people who call themselves Christian, for instance, would entirely reverse that...and would you still consider those people true Christians?

Bad theology bothers me, but no one's theology is perfect. Mine is different than it was 30 years ago. I basically go by the Apostle's Creed as the minimum shared beliefs necessary for me to consider someone a Christian. I also distinguish between leaders (more responsibility for truth) and lay people (less responsibility).

(Reminds me of a boy I dated in my late teens.  His gran was evangelical, and she did not like him dating me because I was Catholic, which she viewed as basically pagan as we have Mary and all those Saints put just a step below Jesus.  I was not a true Christian in her eyes.)

---

One of the things I'm most fascinated by is how different groups of believers rarely agree on anything.
Is life a test?  Some adamantly yes, some adamantly no.  Some not sure.
Is there a literal heaven and hell?  Same, some yes, some no, some not sure.
How to get into heaven?  Depends on who you ask.
Can non-believers get into heaven?  Yes, no, maybe.
Are parts of the bible allegorical or factual?  Some parts, maybe all parts, dependson who you ask.  
And all of this can vary even within sects, because people feel more free nowadays to reject some parts of their own faith, insert what makes the most sense to them personally, then claim it with any confidence at all.  "Well, I think...." That's nice, but that is't what your faith teaches, what's in the bible, etc.
And on and on and on.

And these are all people who band together and claim to believe in the same God.  They have no more in common with each other, belief wise, than we do with them. /Ironic

See above on Apostle's Creed.

[Catholic_Lady]

I don't believe in other religions or other gods, but I'd still be interested in talking to a Buddhist or a Hindu, etc, about their religious beliefs in genuine discussion. I think it would be interesting to hear their views. I certainly wouldn't ask them questions just so i could mock the answers they took time to give me, and be sarcastic and condecending towards them. But that's just me I guess.

Nor would I. But I would say things to make a point.

Seriously though, it would be dishonest if I pretended to take Christianity any more seriously than Zeus.

I also notice that you would take Buddhists seriously and genuinely be interested but if someone believed in Zeus which is considered mythology you would consider that different merely because it's less popular. But it's no less absurd. The religions of today are exactly like the mythology of tomorrow.

---

We can pray to Him. So, "talk to Him" in that sense. But obviously we don't hear back and can't have a back and forth conversation.  

I'm hardly surprised that you don't hear back.

I can't understand how theists can notice that God's presence is completely indistinguishable from his absence and yet they still believe.

I get the feeling you'd feel very empty without your belief in God and Heaven and souls and free will. I bet you'd feel very empty if you believed this is all there is.

Hell, I feel empty believing this is all there is but I couldn't believe in God even if I wanted to any more than I could believe in Zeus even if I wanted to. Even if I decided I wanted to be deluded (I'd probably make a lot more friends if I was Christian too, there's a lot of Christians in my local area and many people go to church. I may even get a girlfriend more easily if I were Christian) but even if I wanted to believe in Christianity I couldn't no matter how much I wanted to.

I don't want to, but even if I was feeling suicidal (again) without more meaning to my life . . . I still couldn't choose to believe in that nonsense. Even if my life depended on it.

So believers must be completely brainwashed.

No, if someone believed in Greek Mythology and was open to discussing it, I'd ask them about that too, and it wouldn't be to turn around and make fun of their answers. Only reason I didn't use that as an example is because it's not a realistic example.

---

I have two questions related to the OP, without being condescending.

1. Do you, as a theist, believe that the afterlife is important? In other words, is the destination of eternal heaven or hell an imperative teaching?

2. (Multi -part question) Do you worry that everyone has different notions of how to get there? What I mean is, some people believe you must be baptized, some only that you must accept Jesus as your savior (thereby damning all decent people of other faiths), some by good works, grace, confessions, etc. What if you are one who thinks you must only accept Jesus, but it turns out that the Baptism groups is correct? This is just another pascals wager. You are as likely to be wrong about how you get into heaven as I am about there not being one. Doesn't that ever worry you?

1. Yeah, it's pretty fundamental to Christian teaching, if that's what you mean.

2. No, it really doesnt....

...One because I do feel confident in my belief that everyone who goes to Hell will be there from their own deliberate choosing, and it won't be like "Whoops! You were Hindu and not Christian, too bad!" Or "Looks like you never got baptised/had a confession, tough luck!" I cant imagine a God so infinitely huge and all knowing being so petty.

...And two, if I am wrong, there's really no point in being worried about. It will be what it will be regardless of what i do or don't believe to be true, so besides making my best inference, there's nothing much else I can do.

---

So, you don't believe that our choices are what define our destination, but instead that we are basically predestined for one location or another?

No, I believe that one needs to choose God to be saved. The point is that that choice is a matter of the heart, not of precise ritual.

Do you think the "choosing God" can happen after a person dies?

The way I see it, we still have free will in the afterlife. Heaven is the state of acceptance, Hell is the state of rejection. If a person lives this life never knowing God, for whatever reason (wasn't brought up in the faith, was never really exposed to it, etc) can that person then choose to accept Him once they die and see Him? Or have they lost their chance by then? If they lost their chance, that would suggest they don't have free will anymore.

[I_am_not_mafia]

It's official then that even a Muslim who associated other deities with God (AKA commit Shirk) is the among the damned. I personally believe that the majority of Muslims through the ages, commit Shirk. Currently; the Shiite faith and the Sunni faith has Shirk written all over them.

OK this is useful to know. It would be a shame to become a Muslim and then waste your salvation by dabbling with other religions. Quite to what extent does it mean to be associated with other dieties though? Wandering into a church wouldn't do it would it, but I suppose believing in them or making use of their services perhaps? Would you say that if a Muslim partakes in the Catholic Soul Cleansing Service on a regular basis then they'll go to Hell even though they aren't Catholic?

The source book (The Quran) has a list of good/bad actions scattered around 600 pages; thus the bad should be avoided and the good should be practiced. Our whole life, actions and deeds are recorded:

I take it that the good and bad deeds have been collated into a simple list or do you have to read the whole 600 pages? Could you just download the pdf, print it out and stick it in your fridge? So is it that you only get judged by deeds they relate to the list or do you get judged on other things as well? If the former then it looks very useful having everything specifically laid out. It would be like having to adapt your lifestyle to a new diet. It's far easier to avoid milk products than say any food that smacks of western decadence say.

Everything is being written in a record. Privacy has no meaning in front of your own creator. Just like mothers and their toddlers.
We will be judged for everything, even the tiniest thought we ever had.
Everything.

Does your god record actions and deeds before you convert? Is he recording everyone's life in case regardless of their religion or lack of one? Presumably come the time of judgement your god just skips to the main highlights? It sort of feels like being spied on by the NSA when you're not even American.

To avoid hell; one must be chosen by God:

Is this the same god that the other monotheists believe in, or is their god a different god but with the same name? Or does their god not exist? If so how do you tell gods apart if they go by the same name? I mean, we can all believe that the same historical character existed for example but argue about what actually happened.

All of us will fail as it seems. But only the wretched worse will remain kneeling; while the good rest is taken by the mercy of God.

So your god will be taking pity on some if they tried really hard but didn't quite make the grade because the test was really hard? What matters more when being judged, trying or achieving?