Enjoyment from watching others get hurt, and sociopathy

[henryp]

A couple additions to the thread.  This group (the forum) is primarily 21st century 1st world middle class white humanists.  And what several have settled on is "Liking to watch people punching eachother in the head until they're unconscious isn't so bad, because they chose to do it, and it probably won't have any long term effects."   

I'd point out pain killers addiction, brain trauma, and life long injuries are going to wreck the quality of life of many participants.  I'd also point out that I can go find a couple homeless guys, offer them 1000 each to hit eachother with bricks and probably get some willing combatants.  I'm sure there's an amount of money I could offer people to play russian roulette with.  My point being the 'choice' and 'money' that the participants have doesn't change the role of the viewer.  

We've prettied it up.  After all, we're decent empathetic people.  But the essence of what it is hasn't changed.

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Now that's 21st century 1st world middle class white humanists.  We dial it back to 20th century Uganda, and soldiers with aids are raping people willy nilly.  20th century Germany is cooking people.  Slavery and genocide are par for the course in human history.  

If I lit a bunch of people on fire because they were witches, some might think of that as sociopathic or pyschopathic behavior.  But that was like a hobby in Massachusetts a while back.

My point being, I think what we intuitively think of as neurotypical for humans may be way off.

[Edwardo Piet]

CL, I think the reason why you pose this question in the first place is because you think of Sociopaths as simply being people who are capable of sadism but Sociopathy is a lot more than that. I'm capable of sadism. Am I a sociopath?

[Ravenshire]

I can't speak for everyone, or even to all the sports mentioned in the OP, but big hits in football are typically indicative of a good play. I don't stand up and cheer when a receiver is clobbered after a 30-yard gain. I do, however, cheer when the oposing quarterback or running back is crushed for a loss. It's not the hit, it's the result.

[J a c k]

I'm with CL on this ... There's some sort of macabre voyeuristic thing going on in the subconscious. The same mechanism which forces people to rubberneck at serious road accidents.
Is it a part of normal healthy human nature?

I'd like to see all kick boxing and boxing sports banned ...Especially boxing at the Olympics...

What? Why? Under what basis would they get banned? Some people don’t like to watch? Then don’t watch.
I can’t stand thinking of people being hurt against their will. It pains me. It hurts. But when they go in it willingly, I don’t understand why it’s worthy of being banned. I love watching strong people do their thing. I look up to them when they’re doing it under certain controlled circumstances. I wish I was stronger. I get to live strength through them. Heh makes sense to me. Which is why I also LOVE super hero movies. I also tend to cheer for the underdog. In my head, I love a good redemption story, a hero, a story of rising up against all odds. It gives me chills.

Why ban it? Are they being forced? Are they being enslaved to fight? No. They love it, and we love them for it.

[Catholic_Lady]

CL, I think the reason why you pose this question in the first place is because you think of Sociopaths as simply being people who are capable of sadism but Sociopathy is a lot more than that. I'm capable of sadism. Am I a sociopath?

I know there is more to sociopathy than lack of empathy and enjoyment in watching other people get hurt. But it is one very prominent trait of a sociopath that separates them from neuro typical people... supposedly.

No, I definitely don't think you're a sociopath. I dont think people who watch MMA are sociopaths. Or even people who watch violent rapey porn, necessarily.

...That's why this is so confusing to me and why I started this thread. Is there a sort of deep seeded part in many normal people that enjoyes violence against others? Is it a primitive instinct? If so, then can we really say that having empathy is part of being a normal person, when it can be so easily tossed out the window for the exact opposite? (ie, blood lust)

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I'm with CL on this ... There's some sort of macabre voyeuristic thing going on in the subconscious. The same mechanism which forces people to rubberneck at serious road accidents.
Is it a part of normal healthy human nature?

I'd like to see all kick boxing and boxing sports banned ...Especially boxing at the Olympics...

What? Why? Under what basis would they get banned? Some people don’t like to watch? Then don’t watch.
I can’t stand thinking of people being hurt against their will. It pains me. It hurts. But when they go in it willingly, I don’t understand why it’s worthy of being banned. I love watching strong people do their thing. I look up to them when they’re doing it under certain controlled circumstances. I wish I was stronger. I get to live strength through them. Heh makes sense to me. Which is why I also LOVE super hero movies. I also tend to cheer for the underdog. In my head, I love a good redemption story, a hero, a story of rising up against all odds. It gives me chills.

Why ban it? Are they being forced? Are they being enslaved to fight? No. They love it, and we love them for it.

Let me be clear that I don't agree with a ban either. I think igno was being sarcastic.

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A couple additions to the thread.  This group (the forum) is primarily 21st century 1st world middle class white humanists.  And what several have settled on is "Liking to watch people punching eachother in the head until they're unconscious isn't so bad, because they chose to do it, and it probably won't have any long term effects."   

I'd point out pain killers addiction, brain trauma, and life long injuries are going to wreck the quality of life of many participants.  I'd also point out that I can go find a couple homeless guys, offer them 1000 each to hit eachother with bricks and probably get some willing combatants.  I'm sure there's an amount of money I could offer people to play russian roulette with.  My point being the 'choice' and 'money' that the participants have doesn't change the role of the viewer.  

We've prettied it up.  After all, we're decent empathetic people.  But the essence of what it is hasn't changed.

---

Now that's 21st century 1st world middle class white humanists.  We dial it back to 20th century Uganda, and soldiers with aids are raping people willy nilly.  20th century Germany is cooking people.  Slavery and genocide are par for the course in human history.  

If I lit a bunch of people on fire because they were witches, some might think of that as sociopathic or pyschopathic behavior.  But that was like a hobby in Massachusetts a while back.

My point being, I think what we intuitively think of as neurotypical for humans may be way off.

Yes, this is what I was getting at. Regardless of whether it was done consensually, and even regardless of whether it was completely acted out, there is still enjoyment in watching another human being getting hurt.

The consensual stuff and acting parts are just ways we've found to make it ethical. But the underlying principle is the same - enjoyment from watching others get hurt.

[J a c k]

He doesn’t seem sarcastic in that post, but I could be misreading him.

[Catholic_Lady]

He doesn’t seem sarcastic in that post, but I could be misreading him.

Maybe not. It's hard to read him sometimes because hes a big goofball and half the stuff he says on the forums is in jest lol.

[Minimalist]

What? Why? Under what basis would they get banned? Some people don’t like to watch? Then don’t watch.

What they are learning about CTE, Jack, is that it is not the BIG HIT that is the problem but rather the repeated 'sub-concussive' hits.  Remember, it is not just the bouts at the Olympics.  How many rounds do these guys spend in the ring with sparring partners getting ready?  Each rap on the head is a 'sub-concussive blow.'   In one sense boxers have it better than football and hockey players.  The boxer who throws a punch does not suffer any impact.  In the other sports the hitter gets as much impact as the hittee.  And then when they fall to the turf or ice they get a second bounce for their trouble.

At present, of 112 former football players brains which have been examined 111 showed signs of CTE.  In the case of Aaron Hernandez who killed himself in prison he had  the brain of a man in his 60's even though he was only 27.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/21/sport....html?_r=0

There is an impact to these sports.  And what of all the kids who play and never make it to the pros or the Olympics?

[J a c k]

What? Why? Under what basis would they get banned? Some people don’t like to watch? Then don’t watch.

What they are learning about CTE, Jack, is that it is not the BIG HIT that is the problem but rather the repeated 'sub-concussive' hits.  Remember, it is not just the bouts at the Olympics.  How many rounds do these guys spend in the ring with sparring partners getting ready?  Each rap on the head is a 'sub-concussive blow.'   In one sense boxers have it better than football and hockey players.  The boxer who throws a punch does not suffer any impact.  In the other sports the hitter gets as much impact as the hittee.  And then when they fall to the turf or ice they get a second bounce for their trouble.

At present, of 112 former football players brains which have been examined 111 showed signs of CTE.  In the case of Aaron Hernandez who killed himself in prison he had  the brain of a man in his 60's even though he was only 27.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/21/sport....html?_r=0

There is an impact to these sports.  And what of all the kids who play and never make it to the pros or the Olympics?

There’s always going to be risk in sports. One way or another, they can get hurt. They know what they’re signing up for. For me it’s all about choice. If they want it, why can’t they?

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But I digressed. Don’t want to derail CL’s thread.

[Catholic_Lady]

I wonder if several centuries into the future violent type sports are going to be seen as immoral.