*trigger warning* What if atheism's not all it seems?

[Amarok]

Why the hell do you reply to posts like this?!

This is the log that we have for this post: Yesterday, 23:39 (This post was last modified: Yesterday, 23:54 by Little Rik.)

I was awake when you first replied... with nothing more than a quote of what I wrote.
And, apparently, 15 minutes later, you added your actual reply.

I've seen you do this over and over again. Why?!!
It was dumb luck on your part that I remembered to check this thread, even though it had no new replies since the last time I came by, close to my 23:45.
To tell you the truth, I was expecting you to do this, as I've been noticing that you often do this sort of thing.

---

It is obvious that the EEG in those people had to be flat for sometime for the doctors to declare the bloke dead and as far as the bloke is physically dead only the consciousness can put together an out of body experience.  

Is a pity that you haven’t read some of those experiences where real people, real accidents, real death, real places and real doctors went through those experiences.  
Even stubborn and thick atheists changed their mind once they went through an NDE.

If the EEG went flat, then present me with the reports by the doctors where they attest to the flatness of the EEG.

Saying that it's obvious, to me, is meaningless.
Doctors often produce a quick diagnosis based on the common case, the average person. And more often than they'd like to admit, those end up wrong.
For example: You go to an ER with a fever and a running nose, and you're dismissed with a flu. Some pills to lower your fever and help with any pain should be enough to get you back to normal... but then.... 3 days later... the fever is still there, you still feel rotten... well, you feel worse. Turns out, you have pneumonia, or TB, or a number of other possibilities that start out with a simple fever. And, for 3 whole days, you sit on a "flu diagnosis" by a fully certified doctor that turns out to be wrong.
Sure, more than 95% of the people who present themselves to ERs with a fever do have some variant of the flu.... but the other 5% get treated the same, because it's not worth spending the resources needed to discern the actual cause of the  fever.

I'm willing to bet that most of the cases in those NDE cases you like so much, the doctors simply felt no pulse for some time and declared the person dead. Felt... with their own fingers... a very fallible diagnostic mechanism.
Given that, I'd like to know about the EEGs.

Yup EEG's are super limited in their ability to say if your dead or not . EEG's are a detection mechanism not a central body function .

[pocaracas]

Yup EEG's are super limited in their ability to say if your dead or not . EEG's are a detection mechanism not a central body function .

Really?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2772257/

"Electroencephalography: Brain death confirmed by documenting the absence of electrical activity during at least 30 minutes of recording that adheres to the minimal technical criteria for EEG recording in suspected brain death as adopted by the American Electroencephalographic Society, including 16-channel EEG instruments. The ICU setting may result in false readings due to electronic background noise creating innumerable artifacts."


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2518749/

"Brain death, briefly speaking, is referred to the complete, irreversible, and permanent loss of all brain and brainstem functions. Brain death implies the termination of a human’s life; correspondingly, the diagnosis of brain death is very important (Ad hoc committee of the Harvard medical school to examine the definition of brain 1968). Although there remain some social disagreements or different diagnosis criteria in clinical practice around the world (Wijdicks 2002), some standard tests are widely used, such as the apnea test and brainstem function examination. Notably, it is commonly agreed that EEG might serve as an auxiliary and useful tool in the confirmatory tests, for both adults and children (Wijdicks 1995; Taylor 1997; Schneider 1989). Typically, isoelectric EEG recording is required at least 30 min and may last 3–24 h (Wijdicks 2002); the positive response of EEG tests suggests functioning of the brain. Consequently, the patient in deep coma might show some EEG electroactivity, while the brain-dead patient will not. 1"

[Amarok]

Yup EEG's are super limited in their ability to say if your dead or not . EEG's are a detection mechanism not a central body function .

Really?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2772257/

"Electroencephalography: Brain death confirmed by documenting the absence of electrical activity during at least 30 minutes of recording that adheres to the minimal technical criteria for EEG recording in suspected brain death as adopted by the American Electroencephalographic Society, including 16-channel EEG instruments. The ICU setting may result in false readings due to electronic background noise creating innumerable artifacts."


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2518749/

"Brain death, briefly speaking, is referred to the complete, irreversible, and permanent loss of all brain and brainstem functions. Brain death implies the termination of a human’s life; correspondingly, the diagnosis of brain death is very important (Ad hoc committee of the Harvard medical school to examine the definition of brain 1968). Although there remain some social disagreements or different diagnosis criteria in clinical practice around the world (Wijdicks 2002), some standard tests are widely used, such as the apnea test and brainstem function examination. Notably, it is commonly agreed that EEG might serve as an auxiliary and useful tool in the confirmatory tests, for both adults and children (Wijdicks 1995; Taylor 1997; Schneider 1989). Typically, isoelectric EEG recording is required at least 30 min and may last 3–24 h (Wijdicks 2002); the positive response of EEG tests suggests functioning of the brain. Consequently, the patient in deep coma might show some EEG electroactivity, while the brain-dead patient will not. 1"

Yup just like checking for pulses use to be the established official method . I'm simply saying i think it's premature .

[Little Rik]

Why the hell do you reply to posts like this?!

This is the log that we have for this post: Yesterday, 23:39 (This post was last modified: Yesterday, 23:54 by Little Rik.)

I was awake when you first replied... with nothing more than a quote of what I wrote.
And, apparently, 15 minutes later, you added your actual reply.

I've seen you do this over and over again. Why?!!
It was dumb luck on your part that I remembered to check this thread, even though it had no new replies since the last time I came by, close to my 23:45.
To tell you the truth, I was expecting you to do this, as I've been noticing that you often do this sort of thing.

---

It is obvious that the EEG in those people had to be flat for sometime for the doctors to declare the bloke dead and as far as the bloke is physically dead only the consciousness can put together an out of body experience.  

Is a pity that you haven’t read some of those experiences where real people, real accidents, real death, real places and real doctors went through those experiences.  
Even stubborn and thick atheists changed their mind once they went through an NDE.

If the EEG went flat, then present me with the reports by the doctors where they attest to the flatness of the EEG.

Saying that it's obvious, to me, is meaningless.
Doctors often produce a quick diagnosis based on the common case, the average person. And more often than they'd like to admit, those end up wrong.
For example: You go to an ER with a fever and a running nose, and you're dismissed with a flu. Some pills to lower your fever and help with any pain should be enough to get you back to normal... but then.... 3 days later... the fever is still there, you still feel rotten... well, you feel worse. Turns out, you have pneumonia, or TB, or a number of other possibilities that start out with a simple fever. And, for 3 whole days, you sit on a "flu diagnosis" by a fully certified doctor that turns out to be wrong.
Sure, more than 95% of the people who present themselves to ERs with a fever do have some variant of the flu.... but the other 5% get treated the same, because it's not worth spending the resources needed to discern the actual cause of the fever.

I'm willing to bet that most of the cases in those NDE cases you like so much, the doctors simply felt no pulse for some time and declared the person dead. Felt... with their own fingers... a very fallible diagnostic mechanism.
Given that, I'd like to know about the EEGs.

[Whateverist]

PZ has left the forums.

Who is that?  Drawing a blank.

[Little Rik]

1) Doctors like every other human being are not perfect. They too do mistakes but eh when you see the numbers of people who were found dead and had an NDE than it just doesn’t make any sense anymore.
That would represent far too many mistakes.
Your idea that doctors were wrong in all or in the majority of the thousand of NDEs just doesn’t make any sense.
2) I already explained why I mess up my post few days ago. Considering that you did not read that explanation I repeat it once again.
I am away from home and my computer.
At the moment I am using my wife i pad which I dislike very very much but I have no choices.
I find extremely difficult to navigate and that cause me to do mistakes. I am sorry about it but again I have no choice. Be patient for 10 more days when I will be back to my computer.

[pocaracas]

Why the hell do you reply to posts like this?!

This is the log that we have for this post: Yesterday, 23:39 (This post was last modified: Yesterday, 23:54 by Little Rik.)

I was awake when you first replied... with nothing more than a quote of what I wrote.
And, apparently, 15 minutes later, you added your actual reply.

I've seen you do this over and over again. Why?!!
It was dumb luck on your part that I remembered to check this thread, even though it had no new replies since the last time I came by, close to my 23:45.
To tell you the truth, I was expecting you to do this, as I've been noticing that you often do this sort of thing.


If the EEG went flat, then present me with the reports by the doctors where they attest to the flatness of the EEG.

Saying that it's obvious, to me, is meaningless.
Doctors often produce a quick diagnosis based on the common case, the average person. And more often than they'd like to admit, those end up wrong.
For example: You go to an ER with a fever and a running nose, and you're dismissed with a flu. Some pills to lower your fever and help with any pain should be enough to get you back to normal... but then.... 3 days later... the fever is still there, you still feel rotten... well, you feel worse. Turns out, you have pneumonia, or TB, or a number of other possibilities that start out with a simple fever. And, for 3 whole days, you sit on a "flu diagnosis" by a fully certified doctor that turns out to be wrong.
Sure, more than 95% of the people who present themselves to ERs with a fever do have some variant of the flu.... but the other 5% get treated the same, because it's not worth spending the resources needed to discern the actual cause of the  fever.

I'm willing to bet that most of the cases in those NDE cases you like so much, the doctors simply felt no pulse for some time and declared the person dead. Felt... with their own fingers... a very fallible diagnostic mechanism.
Given that, I'd like to know about the EEGs.

There he goes again!

---

1) Doctors like every other human being are not perfect. They too do mistakes but eh when you see the numbers of people who were found dead and had an NDE than it just doesn’t make any sense anymore.  
That would represent far too many mistakes.
Your idea that doctors were wrong in all or in the majority of the thousand of NDEs just doesn’t make any sense.  

Millions of people are declared dead every year.
If 1% of those gets a wrong diagnosis and comes back, it's still hundreds of thousands.
If 1% of those who do come back have an NDE experience, that still makes thousands... every year!! The use of big numbers may be impressive to people, but I've learned to always put those in perspective.
Your thousands of reports are not the least impressive.

2) I already explained why I mess up my post few days ago. Considering that you did not read that explanation I repeat it once again.  
I am away from home and my computer.  
At the moment I am using my wife i pad which I dislike very very much but I have no choices.  
I find extremely difficult to navigate and that cause me to do mistakes. I am sorry about it but again I have no choice. Be patient for 10 more days when I will be back to my computer.

No, I had not seen that explanation.
I've never had to use an ipad, but I often reply on my phone, which I bet has a smaller screen than that ipad.
Still... when you hit the reply button below a post, so that you include the quote from that post, all you need to do is write on the text box that has that quote... instead of going straight for the "post reply" button.
I keep my phone in portrait mode, because the landscape one messes up my text input ability.... maybe it's an android thing... but it's something you may consider, given that the ipad has a retina display and should render this site well in portrait mode.

[Whateverist]

Why the hell do you reply to posts like this?!

This is the log that we have for this post: Yesterday, 23:39 (This post was last modified: Yesterday, 23:54 by Little Rik.)

I was awake when you first replied... with nothing more than a quote of what I wrote.
And, apparently, 15 minutes later, you added your actual reply.

I've seen you do this over and over again. Why?!!
It was dumb luck on your part that I remembered to check this thread, even though it had no new replies since the last time I came by, close to my 23:45.
To tell you the truth, I was expecting you to do this, as I've been noticing that you often do this sort of thing.


If the EEG went flat, then present me with the reports by the doctors where they attest to the flatness of the EEG.

Saying that it's obvious, to me, is meaningless.
Doctors often produce a quick diagnosis based on the common case, the average person. And more often than they'd like to admit, those end up wrong.
For example: You go to an ER with a fever and a running nose, and you're dismissed with a flu. Some pills to lower your fever and help with any pain should be enough to get you back to normal... but then.... 3 days later... the fever is still there, you still feel rotten... well, you feel worse. Turns out, you have pneumonia, or TB, or a number of other possibilities that start out with a simple fever. And, for 3 whole days, you sit on a "flu diagnosis" by a fully certified doctor that turns out to be wrong.
Sure, more than 95% of the people who present themselves to ERs with a fever do have some variant of the flu.... but the other 5% get treated the same, because it's not worth spending the resources needed to discern the actual cause of the  fever.

I'm willing to bet that most of the cases in those NDE cases you like so much, the doctors simply felt no pulse for some time and declared the person dead. Felt... with their own fingers... a very fallible diagnostic mechanism.
Given that, I'd like to know about the EEGs.

Yup EEG's are super limited in their ability to say if your dead or not . EEG's are a detection mechanism not a central body function .

Pro tip: if you can read the EEG, you know no more about death than you did before.

[Edwardo Piet]

PZ has left the forums.

Who is that?  Drawing a blank.

The OP.

[pocaracas]

PZ has left the forums.

Who is that?  Drawing a blank.

: sudden realization : PZ Myers?!