*trigger warning* What if atheism's not all it seems?

[Whateverist]

Who is that?  Drawing a blank.

: sudden realization : PZ Myers?!

Nah, the OP was that PhiladelphiaZebra guy.

[Amarok]

Yup EEG's are super limited in their ability to say if your dead or not . EEG's are a detection mechanism not a central body function .

Pro tip: if you can read the EEG, you know no more about death than you did before.

Oh certainly more but not all . Just like checking pulses would tell you more about death 100 years ago. Not so much now .

[wiploc]

I now cringe at my past self, how arrogant and facetious

It's good that you got over that.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Hi, all

I used to frequent these forums just over two years ago when I was a staunch atheist myself - I used to post anti-religion memes on Facebook, thought Richard Dawkins was super cool, laughed at the *obviously* intellectually inferior religious fools (because the only measure of one's intelligence is whether they refute a god and submit themselves to the great and glorious concept of ~rationalism~ - right?), and generally, I acted like a very proper atheist.

But amidst all of my unwavering sense self-assurance and intellectualism, I now see in hindsight that I failed to ask myself one very important question - what makes me so sure of my beliefs?

I pose the above question to you today because I want you to consider this deeply. I now cringe at my past self, how arrogant and facetious I acted towards a topic which I, and every single one of you reading this post, have absolutely no certainty of. We are all clueless. We can guess, yes - we can ponder and theorise what the answer could be. But ultimately the answers we all come up with are nothing short of personal opinion or hope. Spouting out statements full of 100% assurance, as I see so many atheists do, like "There is no afterlife - deal with it" or "God doesn't exist - now enjoy life" demonstrate an almost - dare I say - religious sense of certainty?

This brings me to my next point: whether you are willing to see this or not (and I too remember wincing years ago when people said this but I now see their reasoning) - atheism follows almost all of the characteristics of an organised religion. It provides you with a sense of certitude, like you have figured out the universe; it gives you a community to belong to; there are bishop-like figures, think Dawkins, Krauss, etc etc., you make statements which you don't know are true for sure. - and finally: non-believers should be ridiculed because their views are *obviously* wrong and yours are completely, unquestionably correct - right?

Beyond this, I wish to understand the following: why is such visceral contempt held towards the idea of daring to have some hope that this universe may have a greater meaning beyond this one? Did you ever consider the person who has just lost their home, or their family, whose life is completely empty and whose only consolation is the hope that maybe there is a loving god out there who cares for them? Their opinion is no less valid than yours, and most of these people hold no ill will towards anyone. They choose (and I can completely understand why) to be optimistic and hopeful in what can be a sad and confusing world rather than desperately trying - quite strangely - to promote the idea of a universe devoid of any greater meaning at all. I ask you to please consider this the next time you laugh at such people.

Finally, to wrap up this post, I want to make one more point: if you are to fully embrace the cold harshness of rationalism and scientific reasoning as a guide for your philosophical views, you must see that in doing this you also accept that in nature there are no concepts of good or bad - the only guide you can get from it is to take what you can get and maximise your own happiness. No justice, no reward for good, or judgement for bad. Just do as you please. This is what rationalism looks like in practice - not ideal for a cohesive society.

I'm not sure about you, but given that our views on the world are personal choice due to our lack of knowledge about it all, I'd take a creed which at its core promotes love, justice, and selflessness towards others over a world view that's equally unprovable but is rooted in nothing more than a cold, every-man-for-himself cesspit.

I would be interested to hear your thoughts.

Best wishes,
- Z

My thoughts? You should stick to speaking for yourself.

[Crossless2.0]

Hi, all

I used to frequent these forums just over two years ago when I was a staunch atheist myself - I used to post anti-religion memes on Facebook, thought Richard Dawkins was super cool, laughed at the *obviously* intellectually inferior religious fools (because the only measure of one's intelligence is whether they refute a god and submit themselves to the great and glorious concept of ~rationalism~ - right?), and generally, I acted like a very proper atheist.

But amidst all of my unwavering sense self-assurance and intellectualism, I now see in hindsight that I failed to ask myself one very important question - what makes me so sure of my beliefs?

I pose the above question to you today because I want you to consider this deeply. I now cringe at my past self, how arrogant and facetious I acted towards a topic which I, and every single one of you reading this post, have absolutely no certainty of. We are all clueless. We can guess, yes - we can ponder and theorise what the answer could be. But ultimately the answers we all come up with are nothing short of personal opinion or hope. Spouting out statements full of 100% assurance, as I see so many atheists do, like "There is no afterlife - deal with it" or "God doesn't exist - now enjoy life" demonstrate an almost - dare I say - religious sense of certainty?

This brings me to my next point: whether you are willing to see this or not (and I too remember wincing years ago when people said this but I now see their reasoning) - atheism follows almost all of the characteristics of an organised religion. It provides you with a sense of certitude, like you have figured out the universe; it gives you a community to belong to; there are bishop-like figures, think Dawkins, Krauss, etc etc., you make statements which you don't know are true for sure. - and finally: non-believers should be ridiculed because their views are *obviously* wrong and yours are completely, unquestionably correct - right?

Beyond this, I wish to understand the following: why is such visceral contempt held towards the idea of daring to have some hope that this universe may have a greater meaning beyond this one? Did you ever consider the person who has just lost their home, or their family, whose life is completely empty and whose only consolation is the hope that maybe there is a loving god out there who cares for them? Their opinion is no less valid than yours, and most of these people hold no ill will towards anyone. They choose (and I can completely understand why) to be optimistic and hopeful in what can be a sad and confusing world rather than desperately trying - quite strangely - to promote the idea of a universe devoid of any greater meaning at all. I ask you to please consider this the next time you laugh at such people.

Finally, to wrap up this post, I want to make one more point: if you are to fully embrace the cold harshness of rationalism and scientific reasoning as a guide for your philosophical views, you must see that in doing this you also accept that in nature there are no concepts of good or bad - the only guide you can get from it is to take what you can get and maximise your own happiness. No justice, no reward for good, or judgement for bad. Just do as you please. This is what rationalism looks like in practice - not ideal for a cohesive society.

I'm not sure about you, but given that our views on the world are personal choice due to our lack of knowledge about it all, I'd take a creed which at its core promotes love, justice, and selflessness towards others over a world view that's equally unprovable but is rooted in nothing more than a cold, every-man-for-himself cesspit.

I would be interested to hear your thoughts.

Best wishes,
- Z

My thoughts? You should stick to speaking for yourself.

. . . and preferably in front of the bathroom mirror.

There are some things that shouldn't be inflicted on others.

[drfuzzy]

As has already been stated - I'm an atheist because I do not see sufficient evidence for any deity.  That's all.  IF such a creature were to show up and say "hi", I would no longer be an atheist.

The problem that I see is that there are people who are "evangelistic" about their atheism to the point of "I'm right and you're stupid".  Some folks out there are very passionate about thinking that they have the answer and everyone else needs to recognize their brilliance and get on board, just like the worst of the religious preachers.  Do I think the world would be better off without religion?  Oh certainly, parts of my LIFE have been horrifically damaged by Fundamentalist dogma.  But that does not mean that I can get away with disrespecting others who do not agree with me.

Am I absolutely certain that there is no god?  No.  But I'm certain enough.  I'm no longer driven by fantasy and fear.  I value examination of ideas over dogmatic certainty.

[bennyboy]

"Atheism" seems like a doctrine regarding the lack of God, or the lack of a doctrine regarding the existence of God.

Seems 100% exactly like what it is, to me.

[Foxaèr]

.

Am I absolutely certain that there is no god?  No. 

Trust me, there absolutely is no god.

[Wyrd of Gawd]

Pro tip: if you can read the EEG, you know no more about death than you did before.

Oh certainly more but not all . Just like checking pulses would tell you more about death 100 years ago. Not so much now .

If you really want to know if a body is dead wrap a plastic bag of the head.   If it's alive it will start gasping for air very quickly.

[Amarok]

Oh certainly more but not all . Just like checking pulses would tell you more about death 100 years ago. Not so much now .

If you really want to know if a body is dead wrap a plastic bag of the head.   If it's alive it will start gasping for air very quickly.

That's possible