*trigger warning* What if atheism's not all it seems?

[The Industrial Atheist]

Did you ever consider the person who has just lost their home, or their family, whose life is completely empty and whose only consolation is the hope that maybe there is a loving god out there who cares for them? Their opinion is no less valid than yours, and most of these people hold no ill will towards anyone.

I disagree that their opinion is no less valid. They believe in god probably because they've been taught to and/or because it's comforting. I don't believe in God because reality contradicts what the Bible says about him. He's perfect love but murdered millions at the least of he's own people. He's all knowing but he couldn't think of a better way to deal with the problem of evil than said cataclysm. He's perfectly just but allows a shit ton of unjust suffering.

I don't claim to be an intellectual but it seems to me my opinion has more facts to back it up.

Now they are welcome to their flawed beliefs. But as others have said yeah when you have them saying gays and trans people are evil, or I might add generally trying to create and atmosphere of unhealthy sexual repression, I have a problem.

When they say someone in sheer physical agony from a terminal illness can't end their life in dignity that's when I have a problem.

When they want their bullshit ideas about how the world came to be taught in science classes (There are things called churches for that? Like on every 4th street corner?)
That's when I have a problem.

As long as they don't push it on others they can believe all they want in jigglypuff in space.

[Joods]

As to my understanding limited as it is, he is making a case of sorts. So yeah discussion. As to his characterization of atheists... well, not really offended. Its a religion of cats.

The OP himself doesn't seem interested in discussion but plenty of other are.

Well you know.... his kind would rather come in, start shit and leave. Why bother to participate when you can get others riled up while you sit back and watch?

[PhilosophicalZebra]

I find it a little unfortunate that a post which I actually sincerely meant to just raise some alternative views has received mostly anger and personal attacks in response. It seems to be the case for a lot of people on here that if someone presents points that go against yours, they are either stupid, crazy, a troll, or all of the above.

I'm actually not all that stupid, but of course that's subject to opinion. Wouldn't consider myself too crazy either. Just had a bit of a change in views in more recent times and thought it could bring about an interesting discussion with atheists where maybe I could change my mind on a thing or two.

It was nice to pop in anyway, even if just for a little bit! It's funny, would you believe that the last time I was here people actually liked me around here?! (Them's were the days...)

Anywho, Happy Chrimbus!

[Joods]

I find it a little unfortunate that a post which I actually sincerely meant to just raise some alternative views has received mostly anger and personal attacks in response. It seems to be the case for a lot of people on here that if someone presents points that go against yours, they are either stupid, crazy, a troll, or all of the above.

I'm actually not all that stupid, but of course that's subject to opinion. Wouldn't consider myself too crazy either. Just had a bit of a change in views in more recent times and thought it could bring about an interesting discussion with atheists where maybe I could change my mind on a thing or two.

It was nice to pop in anyway, even if just for a little bit! It's funny, would you believe that the last time I was here people actually liked me around here?! (Them's were the days...)

Anywho, Happy Chrimbus!

Oh never mind. What I wrote was in reference to another post elsewhere.

[brewer]

I find it a little unfortunate that a post which I actually sincerely meant to just raise some alternative views has received mostly anger and personal attacks in response. It seems to be the case for a lot of people on here that if someone presents points that go against yours, they are either stupid, crazy, a troll, or all of the above.

I'm actually not all that stupid, but of course that's subject to opinion. Wouldn't consider myself too crazy either. Just had a bit of a change in views in more recent times and thought it could bring about an interesting discussion with atheists where maybe I could change my mind on a thing or two.

It was nice to pop in anyway, even if just for a little bit! It's funny, would you believe that the last time I was here people actually liked me around here?! (Them's were the days...)

Anywho, Happy Chrimbus!

Gosh, you're right. The OP alternative views on atheism contained no negative judgements or condemnations. What the hell were we thinking?

[Cyberman]

Just had a bit of a change in views in more recent times and thought it could bring about an interesting discussion with atheists where maybe I could change my mind on a thing or two.

Somehow I find it hard to believe that that's going to happen.

[Amarok]

I find it a little unfortunate that a post which I actually sincerely meant to just raise some alternative views has received mostly anger and personal attacks in response. It seems to be the case for a lot of people on here that if someone presents points that go against yours, they are either stupid, crazy, a troll, or all of the above.

I'm actually not all that stupid, but of course that's subject to opinion.  Wouldn't consider myself too crazy either. Just had a bit of a change in views in more recent times and thought it could bring about an interesting discussion with atheists where maybe I could change my mind on a thing or two. 

It was nice to pop in anyway, even if just for a little bit!  It's funny, would you believe that the last time I was here people actually liked me around here?!  (Them's were the days...) 

Anywho, Happy Chrimbus! 

Wow we might respond frostily  to wholesale judgement and assertions we must be nihilists. Why ever would we do that?

[The Grand Nudger]

I find it a little unfortunate that a post which I actually sincerely meant to just raise some alternative views has received mostly anger and personal attacks in response. It seems to be the case for a lot of people on here that if someone presents points that go against yours, they are either stupid, crazy, a troll, or all of the above.

Or maybe you managed to stuff a bunch of woefully misinformed and entirely common things into just a few posts?  Just proposing alternatives....is there really any way to know? God jumped up off the page, yet, and imparted any additional meaning to the world, btw?

I'm actually not all that stupid, but of course that's subject to opinion. Wouldn't consider myself too crazy either. Just had a bit of a change in views in more recent times and thought it could bring about an interesting discussion with atheists where maybe I could change my mind on a thing or two.

Not  interested.  Bang your head against the pew all you like.  I think that you can manage to do that -and- refrain from saying stupid things.  Plenty of other believers do.  

It was nice to pop in anyway, even if just for a little bit! It's funny, would you believe that the last time I was here people actually liked me around here?! (Them's were the days...)

Anywho, Happy Chrimbus!

-and a merry solstice to you as well.

[GrandizerII]

Two things I notice in the OP. Appeal to emotion and treating atheists like some monolithic group adhering to some sacred creed and finding Richard Dawkins to be so cool (man, you do not know me at all then).

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I find it a little unfortunate that a post which I actually sincerely meant to just raise some alternative views has received mostly anger and personal attacks in response. It seems to be the case for a lot of people on here that if someone presents points that go against yours, they are either stupid, crazy, a troll, or all of the above.

I'm actually not all that stupid, but of course that's subject to opinion. Wouldn't consider myself too crazy either. Just had a bit of a change in views in more recent times and thought it could bring about an interesting discussion with atheists where maybe I could change my mind on a thing or two.

It was nice to pop in anyway, even if just for a little bit! It's funny, would you believe that the last time I was here people actually liked me around here?! (Them's were the days...)

Anywho, Happy Chrimbus!

Even if sincere (I believe you're legit and not a troll, based on your posting history), you did commit a few logical fallacies in the OP, and it does make me wonder what happened in your life that this change in views occurred. Was the foundation not strong enough? Was the need for a purpose too strong? Whatever, none of my business. You do you, just don't mischaracterize atheism next time, if you don't want backlash.

[Little Rik]

Hi, all

I used to frequent these forums just over two years ago when I was a staunch atheist myself - I used to post anti-religion memes on Facebook, thought Richard Dawkins was super cool, laughed at the *obviously* intellectually inferior religious fools (because the only measure of one's intelligence is whether they refute a god and submit themselves to the great and glorious concept of ~rationalism~ - right?), and generally, I acted like a very proper atheist.

But amidst all of my unwavering sense self-assurance and intellectualism, I now see in hindsight that I failed to ask myself one very important question - what makes me so sure of my beliefs?

I pose the above question to you today because I want you to consider this deeply. I now cringe at my past self, how arrogant and facetious I acted towards a topic which I, and every single one of you reading this post, have absolutely no certainty of. We are all clueless. We can guess, yes - we can ponder and theorise what the answer could be. But ultimately the answers we all come up with are nothing short of personal opinion or hope. Spouting out statements full of 100% assurance, as I see so many atheists do, like "There is no afterlife - deal with it" or "God doesn't exist - now enjoy life" demonstrate an almost - dare I say - religious sense of certainty?

This brings me to my next point: whether you are willing to see this or not (and I too remember wincing years ago when people said this but I now see their reasoning) - atheism follows almost all of the characteristics of an organised religion. It provides you with a sense of certitude, like you have figured out the universe; it gives you a community to belong to; there are bishop-like figures, think Dawkins, Krauss, etc etc., you make statements which you don't know are true for sure. - and finally: non-believers should be ridiculed because their views are *obviously* wrong and yours are completely, unquestionably correct - right?

Beyond this, I wish to understand the following: why is such visceral contempt held towards the idea of daring to have some hope that this universe may have a greater meaning beyond this one? Did you ever consider the person who has just lost their home, or their family, whose life is completely empty and whose only consolation is the hope that maybe there is a loving god out there who cares for them? Their opinion is no less valid than yours, and most of these people hold no ill will towards anyone. They choose (and I can completely understand why) to be optimistic and hopeful in what can be a sad and confusing world rather than desperately trying - quite strangely - to promote the idea of a universe devoid of any greater meaning at all. I ask you to please consider this the next time you laugh at such people.

Finally, to wrap up this post, I want to make one more point: if you are to fully embrace the cold harshness of rationalism and scientific reasoning as a guide for your philosophical views, you must see that in doing this you also accept that in nature there are no concepts of good or bad - the only guide you can get from it is to take what you can get and maximise your own happiness. No justice, no reward for good, or judgement for bad. Just do as you please. This is what rationalism looks like in practice - not ideal for a cohesive society.

I'm not sure about you, but given that our views on the world are personal choice due to our lack of knowledge about it all, I'd take a creed which at its core promotes love, justice, and selflessness towards others over a world view that's equally unprovable but is rooted in nothing more than a cold, every-man-for-himself cesspit.

I would be interested to hear your thoughts.

Best wishes,
- Z