Why does science always upstage God?

[brewer]

I can't give you one anymore that you can give me one proving that man has always had gods.

I never said man has always had gods. I said all of the evidence points at man having always had gods. There is no godless society. There just isn't. Perhaps there could have been, but the evidence is overwhelming against that idea.

What evidence?

[ayost]

No, I'm in the industry.  Be like asking a teacher if they believed in pencils.  

I can cut to the chase on this one though.  You'll probably find alot of materialists here who accept biology.  That has to do with being..predominantly, educated western citizens.  Christians also believe in the materiality of their world and plenty accept biology.  Many buddhists are atheists but don't believe that the world is exclusively material and may or may not accept biology.

Are you a humanist? Meaning without theism or other supernatural beliefs, man has the ability and responsibility to lead ethical lives of personal fulfillment that aspire to the greater good?

---

I never said man has always had gods. I said all of the evidence points at man having always had gods. There is no godless society. There just isn't. Perhaps there could have been, but the evidence is overwhelming against that idea.

What evidence?

Those articles you sent me are evidence. The fact that there is no time in history that we know of where there was a documented godless society that then created a god or gods. It doesn't exist that we know of.

[brewer]

Yes, Christians live inconsistently. No argument there. Still, that says nothing about Christianity, except that we don't live it out perfectly. Actually, trying very hard to live a Christian life and failing to do so is very consistent with Christianity. In fact, that struggle is addressed over and over in the Bible. That's why we need Jesus.

There are no inconsistencies in the "Christian belief system". I'm not sure what you mean by that, but I mean what's in the Bible.

So christians get a pass but atheists don't, nice.

You indicated an atheist belief system, I indicated a christian belief system. You can't find inconsistencies in/between the 40,000 denominations or in religions?

Don't you mean you interpretation of what's in the bible?

[The Grand Nudger]

Are you a humanist? Meaning without theism or other supernatural beliefs, man has the ability and responsibility to lead ethical lives of personal fulfillment that aspire to the greater good?

On the fence with that one, personally.  I'd like to say yes - but it may be wishful thinking.  Trouble is, human beings may not have the ability to lead ethical lives of personal fulfillment with gods, either.  I'll note that your god is a murdered jew, again, for example.

I think we try, though. I know I do, and it's never taken any gods, nor would their existence be relevant.

Superstition, though, is fine for atheists. There are alot of superstitious atheists - I have alot of the same concerns about superstition. I wouldn't call it much of a force for good.

How about you. Would you pop off into a killing spree if you lost your faith? I've been accused of being an optimist before - but I tend to think that you wouldn't. That even the faithful would at least try to live ethical lives (even if that didn't amount to personal fulfillment) with our without their gods.

(I certainly think that we should have secular governments, if that's what you were wondering - I think that regardless of whether gods exist - that's a belief shared by a great many superstitious people and christians, too.)

[ayost]

Are you a humanist? Meaning without theism or other supernatural beliefs, man has the ability and responsibility to lead ethical lives of personal fulfillment that aspire to the greater good?

On the fence with that one, personally.  I'd like to say yes - but it may be wishful thinking.  Trouble is, human beings may not have the ability to lead ethical lives of personal fulfillment with gods, either.  I'll note that your god is a murdered jew, again, for example.  

I think we try, though.  I know I do, and it's never taken any gods, nor would their existence be relevant.

Superstition, though, is fine for atheists.  There are alot of superstitious atheists - I have alot of the same concerns about superstition.  I wouldn't call it much of a force for good.

How about you.  Would you pop off into a killing spree if you lost your faith?

Ok, so we can say you're an atheist materialist evolutionist humanist. That is what we call a worldview.

And I understand your commitment to those is on a sliding scale and your definitions have some nuance.

[brewer]

Those articles you sent me are evidence. The fact that there is no time in history that we know of where there was a documented godless society that then created a god or gods. It doesn't exist that we know of.

No they are not. They could simply indicate an absence of evidence and I'm OK with we don't know. It's apparent that you're not.

But we're off track, it does not matter that humans may have always believed. Beliefs change, that should be clear to a monotheist. 

Would you be a dear and define god for us, or at least your gods attributes?

[The Grand Nudger]

Trouble is, my atheism is irrelevant to materialism, and humanism. I just don't believe in gods. You're talking about my worldview, at this point, not some atheist worldview.

If I believed in gods I would believe them to be made of the same stuff that the universe is made of, intereacting with the universe...and I still wouldn't write their laws or cast their votes in government. Sort of related to the greater good all by itself. There are plenty of things I feel as strongly about as some believer feels about their gods - none of which take precedence over the greater good. I think that your religion is palpably and consequentially evil, for example..but recognize that it couldn't be done away with without doing you great harm. It would be a question of trying to right one wrong with another.

[ayost]

Yes, Christians live inconsistently. No argument there. Still, that says nothing about Christianity, except that we don't live it out perfectly. Actually, trying very hard to live a Christian life and failing to do so is very consistent with Christianity. In fact, that struggle is addressed over and over in the Bible. That's why we need Jesus.

There are no inconsistencies in the "Christian belief system". I'm not sure what you mean by that, but I mean what's in the Bible.

So christians get a pass but atheists don't, nice.

You indicated an atheist belief system, I indicated a christian belief system. You can't find inconsistencies in/between the 40,000 denominations or in religions?

Don't you mean you interpretation of what's in the bible?

No one gets a pass. Actually one of the main messages of the Bible, God's judgement, testifies to the fact that no one gets a pass. I was just admitting that the struggle is real.

That's why I said inconsistencies in the Bible, not inconsistencies in denominations. Denominations are groups of people. I already admitted people live inconsistently.

Yes, I can also point out inconsistencies in other religions.

40,000 denominations is an absurd number that differentiates between every possible cultural difference and includes every knock off cult that uses the name Jesus. It's a demonstrably false number.

And now we come to the classic 'your interpretation of the Bible" which implies that truth is subjective. I reject that idea. I believe truth is objective and I think the experience of reality bears that out. Now, do people read passages and draw different conclusions? Yes, again, that doesn't speak to the truth of the Bible, it speaks to the person drawing conclusions. There is good theology and there is bad theology. I understand that. That's people, not the Bible.

[The Grand Nudger]

You just got through telling us that you believe truth to be subjective? That the sum of two and two is dependent upon a very specific subject. Your god.

[brewer]

Oops, just found no god culture evidence: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_atheism

So much for absolutes.