Why does science always upstage God?

[ayost]

Trouble is, my atheism is irrelevant to materialism, and humanism.  I just don't believe in gods.  You're talking about my worldview, at this point, not some atheist worldview.

If I believed in gods I would believe them to be made of the same stuff that the universe is made of, intereacting with the universe...and I still wouldn't write their laws or cast their votes in government.  Sort of related to the greater good all by itself.  There are plenty of things I feel as strongly about as some believer feels about their gods - none of which take precedence over the greater good.  I think that your religion is palpably and consequentially evil, for example..but recognize that it couldn't be done away with without doing you great harm.  It would be a question of trying to right one wrong with another.

I did not say atheism leads to materialism which leads evolution which leads to humanism.

You said atheism is a single line item. I said no it is not, it permeates everything in your worldview. Your worldview is influenced by your atheism.

And I'm sorry, you think you're unique in the world, but you say the same things all of the other atheists I talk to say, just with a slight Grand Nudger nuance.

There is an worldview that stems from atheism, even if you come to these conclusions on your own, and you have not demonstrated to me that you have escaped that wroldview.

[The Grand Nudger]

I see this one alot. So Im going to lay it out in full and simply.

Consider the statement - Curbstomping an infant is bad.

Now, we can call this statement true for purposes of discussion. If we insist that something about -curbstomping infants- is bad..that's what it means for a thing to be objectively true. Curb stomping infants is the object, an object, there are things about curbstomping infants that make it bad.

If we add the caveat "if there is a god" - then..in a godless world, curbstomping infants is bad is not true. The addition or subtraction of some agent, and no change about the object, is the good or bad making property. This, in fact, would also hold in this world. That it's not anything about the curbstomping of infants, but the presence or absence of a god, that makes something bad.

Or, makes 2 and 2, 4.

[brewer]

No one gets a pass. Actually one of the main messages of the Bible, God's judgement, testifies to the fact that no one gets a pass. I was just admitting that the struggle is real.

That's why I said inconsistencies in the Bible, not inconsistencies in denominations. Denominations are groups of people. I already admitted people live inconsistently.

Yes, I can also point out inconsistencies in other religions.

40,000 denominations is an absurd number that differentiates between every possible cultural difference and includes every knock off cult that uses the name Jesus. It's a demonstrably false number.

And now we come to the classic 'your interpretation of the Bible" which implies that truth is subjective. I reject that idea. I believe truth is objective and I think the experience of reality bears that out. Now, do people read passages and draw different conclusions? Yes, again, that doesn't speak to the truth of the Bible, it speaks to the person drawing conclusions. There is good theology and there is bad theology. I understand that. That's people, not the Bible.

So only the true christians count, we can exclude the ones who only claim to be christians and lower the 40,000. Got it.

In the bible, and only the bible, what day of the week did christ die on?

[ayost]

Oops, just found no god culture evidence: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_atheism

So much for absolutes.

I am not speaking in absolutes. I'm not doubting atheists have always existed. I am saying there is no time on earth where no god concept existed and then boom, it arrived on the scene.

Also this article says "Philosophical atheist thought began to appear in Europe and Asia in the sixth or fifth century BCE".  That does not help you case.

[The Grand Nudger]

Trouble is, my atheism is irrelevant to materialism, and humanism.  I just don't believe in gods.  You're talking about my worldview, at this point, not some atheist worldview.

If I believed in gods I would believe them to be made of the same stuff that the universe is made of, intereacting with the universe...and I still wouldn't write their laws or cast their votes in government.  Sort of related to the greater good all by itself.  There are plenty of things I feel as strongly about as some believer feels about their gods - none of which take precedence over the greater good.  I think that your religion is palpably and consequentially evil, for example..but recognize that it couldn't be done away with without doing you great harm.  It would be a question of trying to right one wrong with another.

I did not say atheism leads to materialism which leads evolution which leads to humanism.

You said atheism is a single line item. I said no it is not, it permeates everything in your worldview. Your worldview is influenced by your atheism.

And I'm sorry, you think you're unique in the world, but you say the same things all of the other atheists I talk to say, just with a slight Grand Nudger nuance.

There is an worldview that stems from atheism, even if you come to these conclusions on your own, and you have not demonstrated to me that you have escaped that wroldview.

You'll never hear me say, for example..that we shouldn't write a gods laws into our own because gods don't exist.  Or that I accept biology because gods don't exist. Or that there's only one kind of stuff because gods don't exist. I think that you're falling into the rut of insisting an untrue thing be true - and it's not going to help you understand atheism or challenge your beliefs. Your god could come down and tell me he can't stand hookers and that won't change my position on the matter, either.

You might have to accept, at some point, that my worldview is typical for a person in my society, and even typical to other people in my society who also consider themselves christians. I don;t actually think that I'm particularly unique (pretty much the opposite..I enjoy being a human cog in a massive grinding wheel, interchangeable, replaceable). I don't know what you hope to accomplish by continually insisting this, above..beyond trying to salvage some prepared points that you showed up with that would have failed anyway.

[ayost]

No one gets a pass. Actually one of the main messages of the Bible, God's judgement, testifies to the fact that no one gets a pass. I was just admitting that the struggle is real.

That's why I said inconsistencies in the Bible, not inconsistencies in denominations. Denominations are groups of people. I already admitted people live inconsistently.

Yes, I can also point out inconsistencies in other religions.

40,000 denominations is an absurd number that differentiates between every possible cultural difference and includes every knock off cult that uses the name Jesus. It's a demonstrably false number.

And now we come to the classic 'your interpretation of the Bible" which implies that truth is subjective. I reject that idea. I believe truth is objective and I think the experience of reality bears that out. Now, do people read passages and draw different conclusions? Yes, again, that doesn't speak to the truth of the Bible, it speaks to the person drawing conclusions. There is good theology and there is bad theology. I understand that. That's people, not the Bible.

So only the true christians count, we can exclude the ones who only claim to be christians and lower the 40,000. Got it.

In the bible, and only the bible,  what day of the week did christ die on?

40,000 is a number ignorant people use. Is that more clear?

He died on a Friday.

[brewer]

Oops, just found no god culture evidence: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_atheism

So much for absolutes.

I am not speaking in absolutes. I'm not doubting atheists have always existed. I am saying there is no time on earth where no god concept existed and then boom, it arrived on the scene.

Also this article says "Philosophical atheist thought began to appear in Europe and Asia in the sixth or fifth century BCE".  That does not help you case.

[The Grand Nudger]

Are you here to understand atheism or challenge your beliefs..or tell a bunch of atheists what atheism really is, as relayed to you by some other theist?

As far as doubting whether atheists have always existed...cmon. You might think that uncle ogg was wrong not to believe in a god, or an outlier amongst his peers...but you'd have to be nuts to think that everybody always believed any one thing. As far as the evidentiary record, it appears to have taken quite awhile for people to start believing in gods, though it did eventually become ubiquitous. Ostensibly, gods either did or didn't exist the whole time, or at any given point in that time, and nothing about the change in human beliefs over time affects the truth of that statement.

[brewer]

40,000 is a number ignorant people use. Is that more clear?

He died on a Friday.

Or that only you consider ignorant, superior much?

Or Wednesday, or Thursday. And this is coming from 'christian' scholars. 

Oh crap, inconsistencies. Maybe it's from the ignorant ones.

[ayost]

I did not say atheism leads to materialism which leads evolution which leads to humanism.

You said atheism is a single line item. I said no it is not, it permeates everything in your worldview. Your worldview is influenced by your atheism.

And I'm sorry, you think you're unique in the world, but you say the same things all of the other atheists I talk to say, just with a slight Grand Nudger nuance.

There is an worldview that stems from atheism, even if you come to these conclusions on your own, and you have not demonstrated to me that you have escaped that wroldview.

You'll never hear me say, for example..that we shouldn't write a gods laws into our own because gods don't exist.  Or that I accept biology because gods don't exist.  Or that there's only one kind of stuff because gods don't exist.  I think that you're falling into the rut of insisting an untrue thing be true - and it's not going to help you understand atheism or challenge your beliefs.  Your god could come down and tell me he can't stand hookers and that won't change my position on the matter, either.

You might have to accept, at some point, that my worldview is typical for a person in my society, and even typical to other people in my society who also consider themselves christians.  I don;t actually think that I'm particularly unique (pretty much the opposite..I enjoy being a human cog in a massive grinding wheel, interchangeable, replaceable).  I don't know what you hope to accomplish by continually insisting this, above..beyond trying to salvage some prepared points that you showed up with that would have failed anyway.

I didn't say you consciously think those things because gods don't exist. They are more like default consequences. So take biology for example: God doesn't exist so we weren't created by God so our origin necessarily comes from nature and biology and the prevailing theory is evolution. Evolution satisfies your worldview and so its easy to accept.

Like that, not like a robot, "I am atheist. Must believe science."

Dude, I started by saying that presuppositions drive worldview and no one is a neutral truth seeker. That was prepared, but you drove the rest of this conversation.

---

40,000 is a number ignorant people use. Is that more clear?

He died on a Friday.

Or that only you consider ignorant, superior much?

Or Wednesday, or Thursday. And this is coming from 'christian' scholars. 

Oh crap, inconsistencies. Maybe it's from the ignorant ones.

You'll have to be more specific. You barely said anything. You didn't quote any scholars or state the inconsistency in a way i can respond to it. Can you give me more?