Why does science always upstage God?

[arewethereyet]

I asked you in a previous post if you believed in evolution and you said yes.

Also the oldest atheist trick in the book is to stay worldview fluid so you can't be pinned down to believing anything because as soon as you do I will dismantle it.

Yeah, Nudge was super-slippery not telling you his worldview when you never asked him what it was.  

Huh...I missed that. We have a book?

Who knew?

[The Grand Nudger]

I asked you in a previous post if you believed in evolution and you said yes.

Also the oldest atheist trick in the book is to stay worldview fluid so you can't be pinned down to believing anything because as soon as you do I will dismantle it.

Yeah, Nudge was super-slippery not telling you his worldview when you never asked him what it was.  

Moot point now, since I told him exactly what my moral worldview was.  What we now know is that he thinks his infallible god shares my moral view..but also that my moral view is bankrupt.

Real superbrain we're dealing with.

[Mister Agenda]

I already granted that there’s not God to start this conversation so that we could fully explore the inconsistency in the atheist moral worldview.

FFS, there isn't an 'atheist moral worldview'. And if you thought about it for one minute, you'd realize there isn't a 'theist moral worldview either'. If all you know about a person is that they're a theist or an atheist, you don't have enough information yet to infer their moral worldivew.

[The Grand Nudger]

He's just repeating things his witchdoctor told him while shaking a rattle in our general direction. Same nut that told him god had exposed himself to everyone, like a common sex crimer.

[ayost]

I’m trying! Hahaha

I can accept that morality is societal if you can fully commit to your worldview.

For instance, if you can say that slavery in America was moral at the time. I get that society changed, but as long as you can admit that at that time slavery was the moral good because society said it was. Obviously, once times changed, slavery became immoral.

If you can say that stoning homosexuals in Israel 3500 years ago in the OT was moral.

If you can say Aztecs cutting the hearts out of sacrifices to the sun god was moral.

If you can say that in Canaan 3500 years ago burning children alive as a sacrifice to Moloch was moral.

If you can say young boys in the Sambia tribe being required to suck off old men until the young boys reach puberty is moral.

If you can say Hindu cannibals stealing dead bodies to eat the flesh is moral.

If you can say rounding up and torturing Uyghur Muslims is China is moral.

If you can say that criminalizing homosexuality in the past in America was moral.

If you can commit and say that all of these types of things were moral goods at the time they happened because society said they are good I’ll at least believe that you believe what you’re saying. I’m not saying you have to want to do those things. I’m just saying you have to say those things are moral goods for those people. I just need you to become the monster you’re trying to stop with your societal moral system.

As I did not live in any of those societies, nor do I know enough about them, I cannot judge them the way you want me to.

My judgement would arise from me applying my societal morality to those instances and finding them, as you do, monstrous.


How would you like to add  to your list some of the things that, I guess, according to you, as follower of the whole bible, should be moral?

Colossians 4:1 ESV
Masters, treat your slaves justly and fairly, knowing that you also have a Master in heaven.
Ephesians 6:5 ESV
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, with a sincere heart, as you would Christ,

I already conceded for the sake of this conversation that we are all atheists so as not to muddy the waters. I really wanted to explore your worldview from your point of view, so if we can talk about these things separately I will answer your question. I just don't want to get into that "Yeah well you do it too" kind of thing. I think the same as you do, that all of those things are heinous acts (except obviously the Bible example, which I'm sure made your eyes roll, haha, but I can explain AND be consistent in my application of my standard, but lets set that aside for just a moment). When you said you can't judge that kind of felt like a dodge.

Consistency is all I'm asking for. Can you see how your system of societal morality fails in that it allows for monstrous behavior to be considered moral? I don't think you societal moral system is completely broken, just that it has the potential to fail miserably when it's used by monsters. Fair enough?

As far as you question about slavery in the Bible I am committed to consistency and it's very important to me to not wiggle or dodge, but to take things head on. So my answer is not all slavery is always immoral. There are moral types of slavery. My justification for this is that Christian's are called to be Christ's slaves. So if all slavery was always immoral all of the time this analogy wouldn't make sense.

For example, the church is called the bride of Christ, husband and wife is a moral relationship. Cheating on your wife is immoral. So it would be like if Paul called us to be the mistress of Christ. That's a sinful relationship so it doesn't make sense for God to call us to relate to him in a sinful way. The analogy breaks down and suddenly I'm confused.

So if I am called to relate to Christ as a slave that means that there is some instance of slavery that isn't immoral.

Contextually, in Biblical times there were many categories of slavery. Enslavement, the capturing of people and keeping them as slaves until they die, was immoral and punishable by death. Economic slavery, where I owe a debt and am ordered into slavery or sell myself into slavery was moral and came with many limitations, including limitations on how long someone could be a slave.

[The Grand Nudger]

Oh god, another slavery revisionist. Here to harangue us about our morals.

Why is it always the same constellation of shit with you people? God do a lil typo when he was scribbling on your hearts?

[ayost]

It may feel like a dodge to you, but I'm just doing my best to be objective in situations for which I have very little context.
What little I know is that slavers in North America often used the fact that slavery is condoned in the bible as justification for their behavior.

Fair enough to your first sentence. I can see that you're trying to have a standard and apply it objectively. That standard only works when people like you and I are policing each other. Once an crazy dictator comes along the system gets dicey. Obviously, your standards assume not a crazy dictator, haha. Unless you're actually Kim Jong-un and I don't know it, haha.

I think we can agree it's an abuse of the Bible in your second sentence. I don't think we should use this kind of argument because you and I know the difference. For example, I don't fault atheists because Jeffrey Dahmer used atheism to validate eating people. Clearly that's an abuse of atheism.

That seems like a very slippery slope, where a person can be made to be indebted indefinitely.
Luckily, there are laws in place (in most places) that prevent even the type of slavery that you would be ok with.

It was definitely limited by law to 6 years, so it could not be indefinite.

[The Grand Nudger]

There are two categories of slaves in magic book Ayost.  Jews, and non jews.  Non jews are the kind you can invade, kill their families, and take their virgin daughters for yourself..yes..for life. That's just in principle, ofc, there were loopholes to enslave jews for life, and their kids too...but in practice they didn't need the loopholes.


This, though, is another great example.

So if I am called to relate to Christ as a slave that means that there is some instance of slavery that isn't immoral.

-moral subjectivism.  The goodness or badness of slavery is determined by whether or not someone calls you to do it, not by anything about slavery.

[Abaddon_ire]

Oh god, another slavery revisionist.  Here to harangue us about our morals.

Why is it always the same constellation of shit with you people?  God do a lil typo when he was scribbling on your hearts?

Have we got to the "indentured servitude" nonsense yet?

[The Grand Nudger]

Yeah, which would be hot garbage even if it weren't a blatant lie. I'm starting to get the feeling that this idol worshipper with a magic book for a god hasn't actually read the damn thing.

IDK, if I was going to tell a bunch of people that I believed in every jot and tittle, and tell people that it would be impossible for a single jot or tittle to be false and for my god to exist, I'd be more curious about the contents.