Dealing with homophobia on Atheist Forums

[Existentialist]

Somebody started a thread by posting a particularly nasty homophobic comment on these message boards in the last 24 hours. I won't dignify it by specifying it because at this stage I think it is fairly obvious. I realise it was a mistake on my part to reply to it earlier as I did, albeit to express disapproval. But this isn't the first time some vile homophobic remarks have been posted on these message boards, somehow even if it's done under in the guise of a joke it's worse. I wonder if those of us who loathe those kind of comments need a better strategy for dealing with them than just trying to deal with them by replying in the offending thread.

There are a couple of reasons why I doubt homophobic posts can be successfully dealt with in a centralised way. Firstly the Rules don't seem to help for a couple of reasons - the 'no personal attacks' rule only seems to apply when an individual member is personally attacked in an 'unprovoked' way, so homophobic people can make generally offensive remarks out of the blue and remain in the clear as far as any moderator action is concerned. Secondly most of us probably support people's freedom of expression anyway, so would argue in favour of somebody being able to make offensive remarks. The issue is how we respond to them. And I think that simply replying to a deliberately homophobic thread started by a homophobe just dignifies the attack on gay people. It also means the thread keeps getting bumped to the top of whichever selection of the boards you happen to be looking at which encourages more replies.

Although I feel personally attacked, it's not just because I'm gay/bisexual myself that I'm offended, it's also the implications for what happens if the same kind of generalised remarks are made about race, gender, disability or many other aspects of people's identity.

So wouldn't it be a better strategy for anti-homophobic, pro-free speech forum members to just not reply? Let the thread disappear of its own accord. Start a new thread about the homophobic aspects of it and respond to that maybe. I just feel that to keep replying, whatever the content of the reply, is to let the homophobes win far more attention than they deserve. If it's going to get bumped, let the homophobes do it - let them identify themselves, and provide an alternative thread where the rest of us can decide what we want to do about it. This is not to say I'm against the contents of people's replies in that thread. A lot of sensible things have been said. I just think there is a better way of making those statements than to keep replying to a homophobic opening post. I'd be interested in people's replies. It's about what makes a forum an enjoyable yet thought-provoking environment, and how to stop a forum becoming a threatening and unpleasant experience for large sections of its own membership.

[Paul the Human]

Don't be such a whiny little girly-man. Ha!

[Tiberius]

I disagree that responding somehow "dignifies" the attack; it's an absurd suggestion, especially when considering that most of the responses are in defence of the people being attacked. Everyone is entitled to their opinion here; even if it is homophobic. Everyone is also entitled to respond in their own way, and people seem to want to respond by attacking the arguments used, and defending against hate.

Look at the thread I posted about George Takei. If it weren't for Dotard completely missing the point, I wouldn't have found the scientific study that links homophobes to homosexual arousal, and nobody would have been educated on the point being made. Sure, Dotard might not accept the study, but what does that matter? As long as other people see it, they can use it in the future to defend against hate using reason.

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

You mean that moronic and hateful piece by Ib?

I wouldn't waste my time trying to explain.Nothing to do with dignity,but the pointlessness of trying to reason with bigotry.BUT it's OK to let people know when one disagrees with a view they hold.

That kind of bigoted attitude sadly remains common,but as replies have shown, it's not the consensus on this forum.

The unintentionally hilarious thing is that what's-his-name thinks he's describing every gay he's met, as if he can tell a person's sexual preference by overt public behaviour.

With a gay sister, I've been around gays of both genders for 40 years. Is my sister a bitch? Sometimes,most certainly ,just as I can be a dead cunt. That's called being a human being.

[Dotard]

Don't be such a whiny little girly-man. Ha!

I second the motion.

[Skipper]

Last week or so has shown me these boards have a fair few very homophobic members. Let them say what they want though, like Adrian says it brings it out for discussion and we can all learn new things and how these posters are complete fucking tools.

[Dotard]

...these posters are complete fucking tools.

Yeah, fuck you too ya asswipe.


We are all different, it's what makes the world go 'round. To start the name calling because someone is different demonstrates, IMO, who the real 'tool' is here.

You're different than me, fine, we discuss our differances, explain the 'whys' best we can and as Adrian said, we all learn a little something.

What you posted is no different than if I were to come in here and post;
"Last week or so has shown me these boards have a fair few very homosexual members. Let them say what they want though, like Adrian says it brings it out for discussion and we can all learn new things and how these posters are complete fucking cock-sucking faggots."

Would anything constructive come of that? Why the fuck do you think it would be different posting what you did?

[Paul the Human]

For the record... I am not remotely homophobic. My post above was just a joke. It was in bad taste, but hey... those are my favorite kinds of jokes!

I am as heterosexual as it is possible to be, but I am also a very socially inclusive person. I know quite a few gay people and, to be honest, they are usually more fun to hang out with than a lot of my straight friends. Fewer hang-ups.

[Autumnlicious]

these posters are complete fucking tools.

Says the genius who defines people who control their unreasonable fears into the same category as those who will be super paranoid about being around gays.

Really.

Bite me, you ideological freak.

[Existentialist]

Well anyway thanks for your replies everyone. Apart from Dotard, obviously. And Padraic, I find your mysogynistic language offensive but I wouldn't want to force you to stop using it. Which brings me on to my next point. I've mentioned before one of my favourite quotes, "I disapprove of what you say, but I would fight to the death for your right to say it." (Evelyn Beatrice Hall) In principle I support the idea of defending a person's right to say something, even if it is offensive.

So may I just reassure everyone again that I'm not suggesting that we shouldn't "let" people say what they want, where they want - that goes for both the homophobes and their opponents. My point was really about my feelings as a gay man seeing the same homophobic remark being repeatedly bumped up to the top of the thread lists, often by anti-homophobic members. I imagine the same would go for a black or asian member seeing racist remarks repeatedly bumped up in a similar way, or a disabled person or someone with a physical or mental health problem.

All I wanted to do was suggest that there might be a better way of dealing with the problem, and in the process creating a more positive environment. This better way I'm suggesting doesn't involve removing anyone's entitlement to say something anywhere. Equally it doesn't mean that when people respond to some of the issues arising from a homophobic thread, they must respond under the same homophobic title. It is a personal decision for each individual what they do, and they can be judged or not by others on the personal decisions they make.

The question of whether bumping offensive homophobic remarks up to the top of the thread lists 'dignifies' the homophobia is also a personal one, but it is far from being an absurd suggestion that it does. A hundred anti-homophobic replies may well express opposition, and contain some extremely well-argued points, but the homophobic remark is still at the top of the thread list as a result of each of the 100 replies. Personally I find this an unsatisfactory outcome because of the repeated appearance of a homophobic remark at the top of the thread lists. It creates an ugly environment. I don't think that's an absurd opinion. All I am doing is trying to find out if there are others in the forum who also think that repeatedly bumping a homophobic remark is not a good outcome, even if it is done by anti-homophobic posts. We are in the realm of exploring individual approaches to a problem, not discussing what is and is not allowed to be said.