Admitting You're a Sinner

[vulcanlogician]

My goal in replying was not to convince you of the Christian position, it was so you understand it better. A discussion requires understanding the other side.

Agreed. My goal is to understand the Christian position as you present it, but also to see how it fares against objections. So let's try again.

On the doctrine of sin, there will be no common ground. IMO, there is no such thing as sin in a naturalistic worldview. Only subjective morality linked to harm and social contract. The Christian worldview anchors morality with God. These philosophies are worlds apart. 

Yes.

No, teaching morality is not the core message of Christ.

But since you are a servant of Christ, isn't your service to him (ie carrying out of his moral commandments) an important facet of your relationship with him? 

I've read the Gospels. I've even been inspired by them. Sure there is a lot of going on about fulfilled prophesies (I breeze over those parts), and miracles (which I understand allegorically). Medical insights: epilepsy is contagious and can make livestock suicidal. Lots of stuff that I will never believe or take seriously.

But you MUST admit that there is also a profound message of peace, pacifism, and brotherly love in there. You're letting schmucks like Gandhi get in on all the action while you guys petition Caesar about marriage laws. The moral teaching is powerful. I admire anyone who tries to live up to it. 

Can we at least agree that there are powerful moral teachings in the Gospels? Please tell me that I don't have to twist a Christian's arm to get him to agree with that.

Regarding "blood ritual" The animal sacrifice did not take away sin (see Hebrews 10 - especially verse 4). 

Then why do so many Christians go on about Jesus being the sacrificial lamb whose blood needed to be spilled to provide salvation? I wasn't talking about the OT when I mentioned blood sacrifice. I was talking about the NT.

Edit: after reading Hebrews 10 I realize you were talking about the NT as well.

Can I just ask some questions: Why all the emphasis on pacifism and morality if belief is all that is required? Why even give moral imperatives if good works will freely flow from one who believes? Can you honestly say that Christians on average are more or less moral than atheists? If not, then what evidence is there that faith leads to moral action?

[DodosAreDead]

[...]  You're letting schmucks like Gandhi get in on all the action while you guys petition Caesar about marriage laws. [...]

Which Gandhi are you talking about?

[vulcanlogician]

[...]  You're letting schmucks like Gandhi get in on all the action while you guys petition Caesar about marriage laws. [...]

Which Gandhi are you talking about?

Mohandas Gandhi, of course.

[DodosAreDead]

And what do you have against him? Genuinely curious.

[vulcanlogician]

And what do you have against him? Genuinely curious.

Gandhi? Nothing. I greatly admire him. He's actually one of my heroes. I called him a schmuck for ironic effect.

[DodosAreDead]

Oops. Didn't catch that.

[SteveII]

My goal in replying was not to convince you of the Christian position, it was so you understand it better. A discussion requires understanding the other side.

Agreed. My goal is to understand the Christian position as you present it, but also to see how it fares against objections. So let's try again.

On the doctrine of sin, there will be no common ground. IMO, there is no such thing as sin in a naturalistic worldview. Only subjective morality linked to harm and social contract. The Christian worldview anchors morality with God. These philosophies are worlds apart. 

Yes.

No, teaching morality is not the core message of Christ.

But since you are a servant of Christ, isn't your service to him (ie carrying out of his moral commandments) an important facet of your relationship with him? 

I've read the Gospels. I've even been inspired by them. Sure there is a lot of going on about fulfilled prophesies (I breeze over those parts), and miracles (which I understand allegorically). Medical insights: epilepsy is contagious and can make livestock suicidal. Lots of stuff that I will never believe or take seriously.

But you MUST admit that there is also a profound message of peace, pacifism, and brotherly love in there. You're letting schmucks like Gandhi get in on all the action while you guys petition Caesar about marriage laws. The moral teaching is powerful. I admire anyone who tries to live up to it. 

Can we at least agree that there are powerful moral teachings in the Gospels? Please tell me that I don't have to twist a Christian's arm to get him to agree with that.

Living a moral life pleasing to God is definitely expected of us. However, this moral life has no ultimate meaning without salvation. That's why I said that morality was not the "core"--because there is something even more important. As an illustration, an atheist could live a significantly more moral life than a Christian. But because the atheist did not deal with the underlying problem of sin separating us from God, the more moral person is in trouble. So, the correct Christian attitude is gratefulness--not more-holier-than-thou. Unfortunately that happens a lot because a huge number of Christians do not understand doctrine. Also, many atheists assume that is the attitude because they don't understand either. 

Regarding "blood ritual" The animal sacrifice did not take away sin (see Hebrews 10 - especially verse 4). 

Then why do so many Christians go on about Jesus being the sacrificial lamb whose blood needed to be spilled to provide salvation? I wasn't talking about the OT when I mentioned blood sacrifice. I was talking about the NT.

Edit: after reading Hebrews 10 I realize you were talking about the NT as well.

Can I just ask some questions: Why all the emphasis on pacifism and morality if belief is all that is required? Why even give moral imperatives if good works will freely flow from one who believes? Can you honestly say that Christians on average are more or less moral than atheists? If not, then what evidence is there that faith leads to moral action?

Because salvation is supposed to change your heart. The evidence is a changed heart is to want to do the right thing to the best of our ability. Examples abound in the NT gospels and epistles as to what that is because while we do have a built in sense of morality when it comes to big things, the small things are not so clear since logically a Christian worldview is new to everyone at some point--even Christians. Examples from the top of my head: humility, love those that hate you, do not squander talents, self-sacrificing, etc. do not come naturally to most people.

I would say that Christian are on average more moral than atheists...IF you remove all nominal and cultural Christians from the comparison. The reason being that if a heart change is a result of salvation, then I would question a person's salvation if there is no heart change (or at least a desire). Of course this will bring up the No True Scotsman fallacy, but I don't think it applies because the definition of being a Christian is not ad hoc--it is clearly defined in the foundational documents--the NT. 

Faith Without Works Is Dead
James 2:14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[a] works, and I will show you my faith by my[b] works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[c

[The Grand Nudger]

Because salvation is supposed to change your heart. The evidence is a changed heart is to want to do the right thing to the best of our ability. Examples abound in the NT gospels and epistles as to what that is because while we do have a built in sense of morality when it comes to big things, the small things are not so clear since logically a Christian worldview is new to everyone at some point--even Christians. Examples from the top of my head: humility, love those that hate you, do not squander talents, self-sacrificing, etc. do not come naturally to most people.

I would say that Christian are on average more moral than atheists...IF you remove all nominal and cultural Christians from the comparison. The reason being that if a heart change is a result of salvation, then I would question a person's salvation if there is no heart change (or at least a desire). Of course this will bring up the No True Scotsman fallacy, but I don't think it applies because the definition of being a Christian is not ad hoc--it is clearly defined in the foundational documents--the NT. 

What on earth was in your hearts before they "changed"............?

For some of us, that's the default state.

[SteveII]

Because salvation is supposed to change your heart. The evidence is a changed heart is to want to do the right thing to the best of our ability. Examples abound in the NT gospels and epistles as to what that is because while we do have a built in sense of morality when it comes to big things, the small things are not so clear since logically a Christian worldview is new to everyone at some point--even Christians. Examples from the top of my head: humility, love those that hate you, do not squander talents, self-sacrificing, etc. do not come naturally to most people.

I would say that Christian are on average more moral than atheists...IF you remove all nominal and cultural Christians from the comparison. The reason being that if a heart change is a result of salvation, then I would question a person's salvation if there is no heart change (or at least a desire). Of course this will bring up the No True Scotsman fallacy, but I don't think it applies because the definition of being a Christian is not ad hoc--it is clearly defined in the foundational documents--the NT. 

What on earth was in your hearts before they "changed"............?

For some of us, that's the default state.

Usually a combination of pride, greed, lust, envy, gluttony, wrath and slothfulness which are foundations for a host of other less than perfectly moral actions. Are there people who have these under control without God (as in no desire to--not just avoid them)? I'm sure there are, but they would be rare exceptions, not the rule.

[KevinM1]

That's a rather dim view of humanity, Steve.

Although, many of your fellow Christians on here exhibit pride, envy, wrath, and slothfulness, so maybe claims of having actually found god aren't all they're cracked up to be. *shrug*