my suggestions of seeking knowledge.

[The Grand Nudger]

Nothing does.

Tall claim.

Not really.  Science offers provisional certitude.  Now..if this isn;t certainty, that;s okay...can you think of some system that produces anything -other- than provisional certitude, as an example?  Reasons out..because all conditional statements are provisional. Beliefs out because it's not even relevant to the subject matter.

All three can produce a feeling of certainty, but that's hardly the point of contention, eh?

To you perhaps.

I'm not sure I understand..everything works the same for me as it works for you or for anyone else.

[Mystic]

Tall claim.

Not really.  Science offers provisional certitude.  Now..if this isn;t certainty, that;s okay...can you think of some system that produces anything -other- than provisional certitude, as an example?  

To you perhaps.

I'm not sure I understand..everything works the same for me as it works for you or for anyone else.

1. I am not sure what you mean, can you define what you mean?

2.  I am saying perhaps to you, nothing is known to produce certainty, it doesn't mean there aren't others in the world who know ways to certainty and increasing in it (they increase in knowledge with certainty).

---

There are in fact probably infinite working models we have not thought about that will work with evidence we have. Science can't pick which is more realistic let alone which is one is true.  I am relatively even certain, almost all working models will be reviewed and changed in the future, and perhaps we might get to a stage where there is little resemblance with the working models anymore because of more observations and more assessment and analysis of those observations.

[The Grand Nudger]

1. I am not sure what you mean, can you define what you mean?

What I mean about what?  Provisional certitude?  Provisional certitude is what science makes claim to.  Now..if that's not certainty..I'm okay with that.  I'm simply pointing out that I don''t have any other tools available to me or known to me that produce anything that -isn't- provisional certitude..so if that's not certainty than the products of my other means aren't certainty either.  

2.  I am saying perhaps to you, nothing is known to produce certainty, it doesn't mean there aren't others in the world who know ways to certainty and increasing in it (they increase in knowledge with certainty).

An example would help, and an example of their method which must be unknown to m,e.  Science, reason, and belief having already been ruled out as producing provisional certitude at best..or worse..and being known to me.

---

There are in fact probably infinite working models we have not thought about that will work with evidence we have. Science can't pick which is more realistic let alone which is one is true.  I am relatively even certain, almost all working models will be reviewed and changed in the future, and perhaps we might get to a stage where there is little resemblance with the working models anymore because of more observations and more assessment and analysis of those observations.

Sure, that's the utility of provisional certitude.

[Mystic]

1. I am not sure what you mean, can you define what you mean?

What I mean about what?  Provisional certitude?  Provisional certitude is what science makes claim to.  Now..if that's not certainty..I'm okay with that.  I'm simply pointing out that I don''t have any other tools available to me or known to me that produce anything that -isn't- provisional certitude..so if that's not certainty than the products of my other means aren't certainty either.  

2.  I am saying perhaps to you, nothing is known to produce certainty, it doesn't mean there aren't others in the world who know ways to certainty and increasing in it (they increase in knowledge with certainty).

An example would help, and an example of their method which must be unknown to m,e.  Science, reason, and belief having already been ruled out as producing provisional certitude at best..or worse..and being known to me.

---

There are in fact probably infinite working models we have not thought about that will work with evidence we have. Science can't pick which is more realistic let alone which is one is true.  I am relatively even certain, almost all working models will be reviewed and changed in the future, and perhaps we might get to a stage where there is little resemblance with the working models anymore because of more observations and more assessment and analysis of those observations.

Sure, that's the utility of provisional certitude.

So you can only be sure of what is not true but never sure of what is true, but even that is debatable, as often, scientist miss apply logic in their analysis of theory.

[The Grand Nudger]

I cant be sure of anything if you don't allow that provisional certitude is certainty.  I don't possess any tools that produce anything other than provisional certitude. I'm just making the contents of that adhere to your insistence.

[Mystic]

I cant be sure of anything if you don't allow that provisional certitude is certainty.  

That's an assumption you make.  Until you fully prove it (which would be a paradox of the assumption, kind of funny), you can't rely on it. If you are relying on conjecture of probabilities to determine probabilities of others things, it's highly circular, and you are relying on what is doubtful too much.

[The Grand Nudger]

It's not -my- assumption, Mystic,.that was your insistence, lol?  You told me, earlier, that the provisional certitude of science was not certainty.  Well, okay.  Then the provisional certitude of conditional statements, reason.... isn't certainty either.

[Mystic]

You are right they are not.

The question is if certainty is attainable, how is it attainable?

And that's not easy thing to answer. But worthy of seeking the knowledge for.

[The Grand Nudger]

You are right they are not.

The question is if certainty is attainable, how is it attainable?


And that's not easy thing to answer. But worthy of seeking the knowledge for.

You seemed to answer it pretty easily when you decided that neither science nor reason (redundant, but whatevs) could provide certainty.  The mind boggles as to what you think could, with those two being out of the running.

(It doesn't..I already know, but I'm playing along, lol)

[Mystic]

You are right they are not.

The question is if certainty is attainable, how is it attainable?


And that's not easy thing to answer. But worthy of seeking the knowledge for.

You seemed to answer it pretty easily when you decided that neither science nor reason (redundant, but whatevs) could provide certainty.  The mind boggles as to what you think could, with those two being out of the running.

(It doesn't..I already know, but I'm playing along, lol)

Reason is the only way to certainty from my point of view. Don't misunderstand. However, as we can err or not really grasp inferences from reason, it doesn't guarantee certainty.

I think the more we use reason, it will eventually be strong enough to grasp and have vision of certainty in inferences that others might not grasp.

Scientific method uses hypothesis, sees observations that confirm it, and concludes hypothesis is strong, but it's not conclusive as it's circular in reasoning and really is just pragmatic as a working model.