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(March 25, 2018 at 10:04 pm)Macoleco Wrote: I think you misunderstood something I said. I used to believe in a REAL GOD. I have pretended a few times as an atheist. Not as a believer.
You played at being a Christian, You couldn't have believed in the real God and now deny Him. You could reject what He wants for you but never deny Him, you could never be an atheist. You see I completely understand.
GC
So you are saying that no one who ever believed in god could ever have their beliefs changed.
The ultimate example of the "no true scotsmen" argument.
March 30, 2018 at 6:20 am (This post was last modified: March 30, 2018 at 6:25 am by Whateverist.)
(March 25, 2018 at 9:59 pm)Godscreated Wrote:
(March 25, 2018 at 9:48 pm)Macoleco Wrote: As someone who used to believe in God and was a christian, I have a question, specially to ex-believers, now atheists.
I used to do the common religious activies such as praying, and believing I had a personal relationship with God. In many points through my life, I thought God had helped me, and thta he was always watching over me. These kind of believes and activities can cause some very strong emotions over a person. Very positive emotions. It makes you feel safe, strong, energetic, and that you can accomplish anything in your life. It helps you overcome hardships, control negative emotions, etc.
After becoming an a atheist, all of these emotions are gone. Maybe not completely, but not to the same extent. Now I feel more insecure, since I know God is not protecting me. I dont feel like an accomplish anything, since I am not all powerful and God isnt helping me. It is now harder to have a positive outlook of life and the future since there is no God. This idea of God is extremly powerful, and I see almost no way of compete against it only with reason and force of will.
I have been wondering if some ex-believers have reached the same level of "positive emotions" if you may call it, only by force of will and reason.
Just as an anecdote, a few times I have pretended to talk to God as an atheist, and I feel some positive force on me. Perhaps I was so accustomed to this in the past, that it still lingers on me. And please, I dont want any believer telling me it is the power of God telling me to believe again.
Okay I want, what I will say is you weren't ever a Christian, how could you have been if you believe there is no God. Christianity is no pretend thing nor delusion, it is real with a real God and how do I know this, a personal relationship where God and I communicate in wonderful ways and only in His timing.
GC
The concept involves moving from a condition of being a believer to a condition of no longer believing in God. At the time one believes in God and values that relationship, one is exactly like you GC. Then, when faith is gone, they are no longer like you. Or maybe your feeling of special chosen-ness prevents you from acknowledging the believer who goes on to abandon their faith as being anything like you .. since God knows you'd never do that.
(March 25, 2018 at 9:48 pm)Macoleco Wrote: As someone who used to believe in God and was a christian, I have a question, specially to ex-believers, now atheists.
I used to do the common religious activies such as praying, and believing I had a personal relationship with God. In many points through my life, I thought God had helped me, and thta he was always watching over me. These kind of believes and activities can cause some very strong emotions over a person. Very positive emotions. It makes you feel safe, strong, energetic, and that you can accomplish anything in your life. It helps you overcome hardships, control negative emotions, etc.
After becoming an a atheist, all of these emotions are gone. Maybe not completely, but not to the same extent. Now I feel more insecure, since I know God is not protecting me. I dont feel like an accomplish anything, since I am not all powerful and God isnt helping me. It is now harder to have a positive outlook of life and the future since there is no God. This idea of God is extremly powerful, and I see almost no way of compete against it only with reason and force of will.
I have been wondering if some ex-believers have reached the same level of "positive emotions" if you may call it, only by force of will and reason.
Just as an anecdote, a few times I have pretended to talk to God as an atheist, and I feel some positive force on me. Perhaps I was so accustomed to this in the past, that it still lingers on me. And please, I dont want any believer telling me it is the power of God telling me to believe again.
If it makes you feel better to believe and gives you a better quality of life, then believe.
If you don't/can't believe any longer (for what ever reason), chalk it up to conversion decompression.
I don't have an anger problem, I have an idiot problem.
March 30, 2018 at 9:27 am (This post was last modified: March 30, 2018 at 9:44 am by rskovride.)
(March 25, 2018 at 9:59 pm)Godscreated Wrote:
(March 25, 2018 at 9:48 pm)Macoleco Wrote:
As someone who used to believe in God and was a christian, I have a question, specially to ex-believers, now atheists.
I used to do the common religious activies such as praying, and believing I had a personal relationship with God. In many points through my life, I thought God had helped me, and thta he was always watching over me. These kind of believes and activities can cause some very strong emotions over a person. Very positive emotions. It makes you feel safe, strong, energetic, and that you can accomplish anything in your life. It helps you overcome hardships, control negative emotions, etc.
After becoming an a atheist, all of these emotions are gone. Maybe not completely, but not to the same extent. Now I feel more insecure, since I know God is not protecting me. I dont feel like an accomplish anything, since I am not all powerful and God isnt helping me. It is now harder to have a positive outlook of life and the future since there is no God. This idea of God is extremly powerful, and I see almost no way of compete against it only with reason and force of will.
I have been wondering if some ex-believers have reached the same level of "positive emotions" if you may call it, only by force of will and reason.
Just as an anecdote, a few times I have pretended to talk to God as an atheist, and I feel some positive force on me. Perhaps I was so accustomed to this in the past, that it still lingers on me. And please, I dont want any believer telling me it is the power of God telling me to believe again.
Okay I want, what I will say is you weren't ever a Christian, how could you have been if you believe there is no God. Christianity is no pretend thing nor delusion, it is real with a real God and how do I know this, a personal relationship where God and I communicate in wonderful ways and only in His timing.
GC
Would this not make apostasy impossible?
Or are you one of those "you atheists really do believe, you are just rebelling"?
(March 25, 2018 at 9:59 pm)Godscreated Wrote: Okay I want, what I will say is you weren't ever a Christian, how could you have been if you believe there is no God. Christianity is no pretend thing nor delusion, it is real with a real God and how do I know this, a personal relationship where God and I communicate in wonderful ways and only in His timing.
GC
Would this not make apostasy impossible?
tens of thousands of schisms doesn't convince you otherwise ??
The granting of a pardon is an imputation of guilt, and the acceptance a confession of it.
March 30, 2018 at 12:12 pm (This post was last modified: March 30, 2018 at 12:12 pm by drfuzzy.)
(March 25, 2018 at 9:48 pm)Macoleco Wrote: As someone who used to believe in God and was a christian, I have a question, specially to ex-believers, now atheists.
I used to do the common religious activies such as praying, and believing I had a personal relationship with God. In many points through my life, I thought God had helped me, and thta he was always watching over me. These kind of believes and activities can cause some very strong emotions over a person. Very positive emotions. It makes you feel safe, strong, energetic, and that you can accomplish anything in your life. It helps you overcome hardships, control negative emotions, etc.
After becoming an a atheist, all of these emotions are gone. Maybe not completely, but not to the same extent. Now I feel more insecure, since I know God is not protecting me. I dont feel like an accomplish anything, since I am not all powerful and God isnt helping me. It is now harder to have a positive outlook of life and the future since there is no God. This idea of God is extremly powerful, and I see almost no way of compete against it only with reason and force of will.
I have been wondering if some ex-believers have reached the same level of "positive emotions" if you may call it, only by force of will and reason.
Just as an anecdote, a few times I have pretended to talk to God as an atheist, and I feel some positive force on me. Perhaps I was so accustomed to this in the past, that it still lingers on me. And please, I dont want any believer telling me it is the power of God telling me to believe again.
It's a function of simple human social group-think. When you are a member of a group that holds a set of beliefs, and builds group rituals around those beliefs, and expects you to adhere to certain rules, you comply in order to be accepted. When you are surrounded by adults and those in control of the group that are preaching certain beliefs (that you must accept in order to remain a member of the group) you incorporate those beliefs into your own behavior. Being a member of a group, by itself, provides comfort. The messages given in xtian groups are meant to be comforting: IF YOU COMPLY, you are special to the all-powerful creator of the cosmos. You are better than the non-believers, who are everywhere. You get the support of the group members while alive, and after you die, you will have everything you could ever want forever.
(Reminded me of a line in a Holy Thursday hymn yesterday: "I who made the moon and stars now kneel to wash your feet".)
I was raised Pentecostal. I feel the pull when friends lose loved ones - ah, it would be comforting to say "you'll see him again" and "he's with god and no longer in pain". But the only part I can believe now is that "he's no longer in pain".
And GC clearly ignored the last line in your post, as usual. Any time an atheist describes a religious upbringing, he brings up that "you were never a xtian" crap. I got it too.
"The family that prays together...is brainwashing their children."- Albert Einstein
March 30, 2018 at 11:47 pm (This post was last modified: March 31, 2018 at 12:37 am by Godscreated.)
(March 30, 2018 at 6:11 am)downbeatplumb Wrote:
(March 30, 2018 at 1:19 am)Godscreated Wrote: You played at being a Christian, You couldn't have believed in the real God and now deny Him. You could reject what He wants for you but never deny Him, you could never be an atheist. You see I completely understand.
GC
So you are saying that no one who ever believed in god could ever have their beliefs changed.
The ultimate example of the "no true scotsmen" argument.
I am saying that if one truly believes in the living God they can only deny what He offers, they can't deny His existence. Example, one of your parents subscribes to a way of life you do not believe is right, you can deny that way of life but you can't deny the parent is real. Now don't give me the God can't be seen thing it want work, the person believed with certainty that God exist and that can't change.
GC
(March 30, 2018 at 6:20 am)Whateverist Wrote:
(March 25, 2018 at 9:59 pm)Godscreated Wrote: Okay I want, what I will say is you weren't ever a Christian, how could you have been if you believe there is no God. Christianity is no pretend thing nor delusion, it is real with a real God and how do I know this, a personal relationship where God and I communicate in wonderful ways and only in His timing.
GC
The concept involves moving from a condition of being a believer to a condition of no longer believing in God. At the time one believes in God and values that relationship, one is exactly like you GC. (Then, when faith is gone, they are no longer like you. Or maybe your feeling of special chosen-ness prevents you from acknowledging the believer who goes on to abandon their faith as being anything like you .. since God knows you'd never do that.)
Sounds kind of prissy to me.
Answering the bold by me, I believe in the real God and if one believes in Him and then changes their mind about His reality they never believed in the God, this is a simple thing anyone that claims the logic you do should be able to see this. Answer to the part in parenthesis by me, they could have never been like me because I will never reject God because I know for a fact (God given evidence for me) that God is real. I'm super glad I was chosen by God to be a part of His family, by Christ's death and resurrection and God's grace I'm saved for a future of eternal life. I'm realistic in this matter, you are just trying to justify your own life in this matter and the only justification that counts is God's.
GC
(March 30, 2018 at 9:27 am)rskovride Wrote:
(March 25, 2018 at 9:59 pm)Godscreated Wrote: Okay I want, what I will say is you weren't ever a Christian, how could you have been if you believe there is no God. Christianity is no pretend thing nor delusion, it is real with a real God and how do I know this, a personal relationship where God and I communicate in wonderful ways and only in His timing.
GC
Would this not make apostasy impossible?
Or are you one of those "you atheists really do believe, you are just rebelling"?
No and no.
GC
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
(March 30, 2018 at 11:47 pm)Godscreated Wrote: [quote='downbeatplumb' pid='1726596' dateline='1522404710']
So you are saying that no one who ever believed in god could ever have their beliefs changed.
The ultimate example of the "no true scotsmen" argument.
(March 30, 2018 at 11:47 pm)Godscreated Wrote: I am saying that if one truly believes in the living God they can only deny what He offers, they can't deny His existence. Example, one of your parents subscribes to a way of life you do not believe is right, you can deny that way of life but you can't deny the parent is real. Now don't give me the God can't be seen thing it want work, the person believed with certainty that God exist and that can't change.
People are often wrong about things "they know for a certainty" and when they find that out they change their minds.
Lets take your analogy. Lets say that the person was delusional and imagining the parents existence or misunderstanding their belief system or perhaps it turns out that they weren't his real parents.
(March 30, 2018 at 6:11 am)downbeatplumb Wrote: So you are saying that no one who ever believed in god could ever have their beliefs changed.
The ultimate example of the "no true scotsmen" argument.
(March 30, 2018 at 11:47 pm)Godscreated Wrote: I am saying that if one truly believes in the living God they can only deny what He offers, they can't deny His existence. Example, one of your parents subscribes to a way of life you do not believe is right, you can deny that way of life but you can't deny the parent is real. Now don't give me the God can't be seen thing it want work, the person believed with certainty that God exist and that can't change.
People are often wrong about things "they know for a certainty" and when they find that out they change their minds.
Lets take your analogy. Lets say that the person was delusional and imagining the parents existence or misunderstanding their belief system or perhaps it turns out that they weren't his real parents.
There that wasn't so hard now was it.
Now your just playing games with words and situations. We were never speaking of a delusional person. People who are delusional are not taken seriously and usually are medicated heavily or living on the street, very few are able to be a contributor to society. Besides those who are "actually" certain do not change their minds on a matter.
GC
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
(April 1, 2018 at 1:27 am)Godscreated Wrote:
Now your just playing games with words and situations. We were never speaking of a delusional person. People who are delusional are not taken seriously and usually are medicated heavily or living on the street, very few are able to be a contributor to society. Besides those who are "actually" certain do not change their minds on a matter.
GC
People who were certain do change their minds.
I was certain that Emma was the one for me until she turned out to be a complete psycho, then I changed my mind.
See how that works. You are certain of something until better evidence comes along.
You do not keep thinking what you believed was true if it was proved incorrect do you?
Oh wait your a Christian..so no proof, no matter how good or convincing or real could shift you from your belief.
