The most horrifying journey, this is what doubting 'everything' does.

[vulcanlogician]

So all I wanted from that discussion was a reason to believe in justifying value. 

I value goodness. I think doing so is axiomatic... in other word: it is self-evident that one should value what is good.

The only question that remains then is: What is good?

Do you take issue with my perspective?

[The Grand Nudger]

Some value goodness axiomatically. Some value goodness out of rational self interest.  Some value goodness just because that's who they are.  Some value goodness and entirely lose their shit trying to explain why they do and why everyone else is a liar who can;t possibly justify their own values any way other than said nutbars magic books.

[Mystic]

So all I wanted from that discussion was a reason to believe in justifying value. 

I value goodness. I think doing so is axiomatic... in other word: it is self-evident that one should value what is good.

The only question that remains then is: What is good?

Do you take issue with my perspective?

Yes I do. As I explained, value values valuing the most, it praises when people act on valuing more then anything else, and appreciates appreciation, compassion, and generosity, which is all done out of valuing.

But what is valuing valuing? It becomes highly circular. The same is true of logic and reason. 

I don't believe in axioms anymore, like I use to.  I severely question that for a reason.

If it was like 1+1=2, it would been easy.


Something as complex as valuing and love, which either sees everything properly and love is a true assesser of all things and their outward and inward forms, or it's not....

We know of it existing as children and act on it, but as it get's greater, we need to realize what is and what it's source, and what's it's nature.

I don't believe anything is properly basic knowledge anymore. 

God is not either. If he was, we would all have the same vision of him.

It takes reflection. Reflection is the perceiver that sees through the eyes of love, that mirrors the light and channel love, and sees the name of God and guide with us.


Sure we don't always realize goodness and attachment to the guide and making him the eyes by which we see, was the nature, and we didn't have that capacity as children.

But in time, without this perception.

It becomes confusing and perplexing. Everyone talks of goodness, yet humans don't agree on what it is.

Everyone talks about love, but where is the love in this world?

It seems like a selfish thing we deluded ourselves for purpose evolving, that we made ourselves have such magical qualities.

And the Quran argues without one Absolute being,  everything would be in a state of corruption, but the truth is they are created by truth, by the water of the divine throne, the water by which the spirit of God was upon, in the bible.

---

Some value goodness axiomatically. 

Explain me what an axiom is, and how it possibly is a source of knowledge. I would like to hear it.

[vulcanlogician]

It becomes confusing and perplexing. Everyone talks of goodness, yet humans don't agree on what it is.

People talk about the shape of the earth. But humans don't agree on what it is. Some people think the world is flat. They're wrong. Just because there is disagreement doesn't mean that there isn't truth.

Everyone talks about love, but where is the love in this world?

Somewhere, but not everywhere. Ideally there would be more of it. But there isn't. But see what we've discovered there? More love=good.

Sub-Saharan Africa lacks water. So more water in Sub-saharan Africa=good. Finding values this way is easy. And no God required.

[Mystic]

It becomes confusing and perplexing. Everyone talks of goodness, yet humans don't agree on what it is.

People talk about the shape of the earth. But humans don't agree on what it is. Some people think the world is flat. They're wrong. Just because there is disagreement doesn't mean that there isn't truth.

Yet this truth is unseen as far as this goes. Human goodness is not seen by physical eyes.  We don't put on an assessment of the hardwiring of the brain and assess an individuals actions when they act good to us. We asses goodness and believe in it by what exactly? It is perceived not empirically unless you go the hedonistic route where you assess everything that makes us happier, but that it's has flaws, and is paradoxical.

What you said is true. But there comes a point where you will justify the track you are on and not take for granted. 

I find it funny how people talk about the truth they discover is all religions are false and there is no God(s).

What about the nature of what makes us value? What is true perception of love, and how does it accurately see as opposed to see through deceiving eyes of falsehood.

Why do people dispute regarding evil and good, and why do people do the most evilest of things in the name of good and why do  a lot of evil people think they are paragons of virtue?

And we all dispute about the true nature of goodness, both it's substance, it's source, and it's details. Yet like you said there is truth no matter how many people dispute.

---

 More love=good.

Even if you become sorrowful and struggle to change the world and devote yourself to changing the world, only to achieve so little?

[vulcanlogician]

Explain me what an axiom is, and how it possibly is a source of knowledge. I would like to hear it.

An axiom or postulate is a statement that is taken to be true, to serve as a premise or starting point for further reasoning and arguments. The word comes from the Greek axíōma (ἀξίωμα) 'that which is thought worthy or fit' or 'that which commends itself as evident.'[1][2]

The term has subtle differences in definition when used in the context of different fields of study. As defined in classic philosophy, an axiom is a statement that is so evident or well-established, that it is accepted without controversy or question.[3] As used in modern logic, an axiom is simply a premise or starting point for reasoning.[4]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axiom

An axiom is a starting point for reasoning. You actually can't reason at all without at least one axiom.

[Mystic]

Explain me what an axiom is, and how it possibly is a source of knowledge. I would like to hear it.

An axiom or postulate is a statement that is taken to be true, to serve as a premise or starting point for further reasoning and arguments. The word comes from the Greek axíōma (ἀξίωμα) 'that which is thought worthy or fit' or 'that which commends itself as evident.'[1][2]

The term has subtle differences in definition when used in the context of different fields of study. As defined in classic philosophy, an axiom is a statement that is so evident or well-established, that it is accepted without controversy or question.[3] As used in modern logic, an axiom is simply a premise or starting point for reasoning.[4]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axiom

An axiom is a starting point for reasoning. You actually can't reason at all without at least one axiom.

I know what it is. I use to argue by this all the time.

Except it really comes down to "we all rely on for furthering out tree of reason, but don't know how to justify it, but it seems true, so we hold on to it as clear and evident".

---

Explain me what an axiom is, and how it possibly is a source of knowledge. I would like to hear it.

An axiom or postulate is a statement that is taken to be true, to serve as a premise or starting point for further reasoning and arguments. The word comes from the Greek axíōma (ἀξίωμα) 'that which is thought worthy or fit' or 'that which commends itself as evident.'[1][2]

The term has subtle differences in definition when used in the context of different fields of study. As defined in classic philosophy, an axiom is a statement that is so evident or well-established, that it is accepted without controversy or question.[3] As used in modern logic, an axiom is simply a premise or starting point for reasoning.[4]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axiom

An axiom is a starting point for reasoning. You actually can't reason at all without at least one axiom.

Is a loaded question, a fallacy or not.

I don't believe it is, but philosophers tell me it is.

When they try to justify it,  it's kind of funny really... they begin to justify with all the fallacies they refute lol.

Sure we can be reminded of things we know, but what is knowledge?

Even properly basic knowledge, properly basic axioms what are they?

I say they are vision, but you have  to justify the perceiver. Without justifying the perceiver, and without knowing who you are, you can't separate what are axioms and what are false assumptions.

Like the material worlds existing is an axiom we rely on, but I am sure it's false. There is no such thing as a material substance, only spiritual substance, everything speaks and has consciousness.

[vulcanlogician]

If you misappropriate a claim as axiomatic that is called a "prejudice" ... gotta get rid of those.

Look, I don't see where God needs to come in. If you face a crisis of truth, reason and logic will guide you to greater certainty. (Not perfect certainty, not absolute certainty, but greater certainty.)

If truth itself is the problem, then you're facing an existential crisis. Sartre says to create your own meaning at this point. But I like Albert Camus a bit more. As Camus explains, there are three ways out of an existential crisis: suicide, transcendence, or absurdity. Perhaps you seek God to transcend. Camus doesn't like this solution, but I think it has merit. Seems preferable to suicide anyway.

So which is the nature of your issue? Do you seek the truth? Or is truth itself the problem?

[Aegon]

MK I have a theory that you trying to convince us of your view (a pointless exercise) is you trying to convince yourself. If You really were confident and at peace with your beliefs you wouldn't be doing this.

Just my 2 cents nobody asked for.

[Mystic]

Yes, and there is no justification of axioms from what I see. People just explain how hard it is to justify anything by it to explain why you have to believe in axioms.

Because they believe it can't be reduced further. Sure perhaps not in word or perhaps words can.

Doesn't mean a serious journey is not need to know how to know anything for certain in the first place.

It's funny how I played mass-effect and one of robots was talking about how in another possible universe, 1+1=2 would be false, and I swear at that time, it sounded "scientific" and "possible".

Don't take what you think you know for granted. True. But never abandon what you know.

Seeking certainty means greater vision of what you know and justifying it and seeking to wove a strong building to stay in, and doubt is but a tester, it's a good tester, but shouldn't be used as a staying place or a builder.

---

If you misappropriate a claim as axiomatic that is called a "prejudice" ... gotta get rid of those.

Who and what and by what will you get rid of those?

You need to know who you are. You need to know yourself truthfully and honestly.