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RE: Oh no not another free will thread.
April 23, 2018 at 2:11 pm
(April 23, 2018 at 2:08 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: It would mean time began from something timeless Hammy.
The first moment in time still needs to come to be.
"First" is an explicitly temporal referant. There is no "first" outside of time.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Oh no not another free will thread.
April 23, 2018 at 2:13 pm
(April 23, 2018 at 2:06 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Right, so what I've been saying is to try to imagine an all powerful eternal being, creator of the universe and creator of time itself. It would seem such a being wouldnt be bound by time and therefore wouldnt be stuck in the present like we are, but rather, would transcend time. It's impossible to truly wrap your head around it because we exist within time and can't even imagine anything different. But that's where this is coming from. I think there's a lot of inability here to think outside the box, or think about hypotheticals and so this conversation will go nowhere.
God responds to prayers and decides in real time. Ahlulbayt (as) in traditions said there is no belief about God better than that he innovates. That is he is can write and erase, decide in the present, and is not set in stone in his knowledge... he brings about things he didn't know because it was impossible to know before hand.
This is known as "Bida" and something Sunnis attacked Shiites hadiths for, and Shiites became to embarrassed to defend, so brought the creed to something else and then there is hadiths that explain in the meaningless way...
But I found this is a game changer. When not even God knows my destiny, when I pray to him, it's him deciding at that moment, not predestined from before. It does a huge difference.
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RE: Oh no not another free will thread.
April 23, 2018 at 2:13 pm
(April 23, 2018 at 2:08 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: It would mean time began from something timeless Hammy.
The first moment in time still needs to come to be.
Yeah there was a first moment... but that's different to saying there was ever a time before time began. Nothing happened before time. Happening is temporal.
The first moment was the beginning.
In a way, it's all timeless and we seem to only define time into existence. The way I see it, either presentism is true or time is an illusion. We just label things whatever way. But then, seen as we are already using those labels... I can't see any way of making sense of the idea that the past and the future exist now. Now seems by definition not past or yet to come.
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RE: Oh no not another free will thread.
April 23, 2018 at 2:14 pm
(April 23, 2018 at 2:11 pm)Khemikal Wrote: (April 23, 2018 at 2:08 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: It would mean time began from something timeless Hammy.
The first moment in time still needs to come to be.
"First" is an explicitly temporal referant. There is no "first" outside of time.
The first moment in time needs to come to exist.
Yes, even Kalam argument is correct and proves a timeless Creator.
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RE: Oh no not another free will thread.
April 23, 2018 at 2:15 pm
(April 23, 2018 at 2:14 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: (April 23, 2018 at 2:11 pm)Khemikal Wrote: "First" is an explicitly temporal referant. There is no "first" outside of time.
The first moment in time needs to come to exist.
Yes, even Kalam argument is correct and proves a timeless Creator.
Yeah looks like we agree here.
I don't see that time has to come after timelessness though. Maybe time is all God would need.
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RE: Oh no not another free will thread.
April 23, 2018 at 2:15 pm
Hammy, just as the first moment in time doesn't span forever to the future, it doesn't span forever in the past, it was moment like all other moments...and it came to be like all other moments.
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RE: Oh no not another free will thread.
April 23, 2018 at 2:16 pm
(This post was last modified: April 23, 2018 at 2:17 pm by Edwardo Piet.)
(April 23, 2018 at 2:15 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Hammy, just as the first moment in time doesn't span forever to the future, it doesn't span forever in the past, it was moment like all other moments...and it came to be like all other moments.
All I mean by eternal is that something has always existed (existed at all times). There was no time before time. That's all I mean. I know there was a first moment... it doesn't go back forever.
Perhaps this helps: reality is finite but eternal.
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RE: Oh no not another free will thread.
April 23, 2018 at 2:17 pm
(April 23, 2018 at 1:54 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: (April 23, 2018 at 1:52 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: If the future has not already been created, in what sense does it exist? I think you're trying to have your cake and eat it, too.
In the sense that it will come, unless time ceases.
Suppose I have the ingredients to make a cake in my pantry. I will make the cake tomorrow. Which exists, the ingredients or the cake?
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RE: Oh no not another free will thread.
April 23, 2018 at 2:17 pm
(This post was last modified: April 23, 2018 at 2:18 pm by Catholic_Lady.)
MK: Again, what I'm suggesting is not pre destiny. I believe we make all our choices and we have control over our actions, and there is no "fate" or anything like that. Just wanted to make that clear.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
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RE: Oh no not another free will thread.
April 23, 2018 at 2:18 pm
(This post was last modified: April 23, 2018 at 2:18 pm by Mystic.)
Hammy, looks like you doing the same thing, having your cake and eating it to.
Anyways, I'm gone for the rest of the day. We'll pick up another time!
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