Question

[pocaracas]

Since you're enjoying our questions, here's one more for you to think about.

All I know is, ya'll or me is definitly wrong in our belief...period. We all will die... period...and when we do die we will all face the consequences of our choice for what we belief.

Why would your beliefs have any bearing on what happens to you after you die?
Where did you get that idea?

Can you spot some institution pushing said belief as a way for it to be in a position of power?

I cant express how I desperately want my kids to be able to work that out for themselves, be SURE of what they believe and be able to DEFEND what they believe. That is why i need you guys. Like i said, i read to them what you say.

I can respect wanting to do well for your kids.
I'm just not sure what it is that you want them to defend... Their belief? Or the belief that you bestowed upon them?

Sorry if that sounded like "preaching" to ya'll but i am talking about my kids.

Sounds like you're a great parent. Keep it up!

[The Grand Nudger]

All that to say this.  Kids who are brought up in the Christian church and home....when they attend college, 85% of them start to question or fall away or completely walk away from their "faith".  Reason... they do not know how to defend what they believe in.

You reckon that's why?  It's that they don't know how to defend some x?  I'd suspect that people leave their religions because they no longer believe in some x...even if they were aware of all the right verses to reference, personally.  Elephant in the room...though, are we sure that's when it starts?  

Consider this.  Do you believe what your parents believed?  All of it?  When did you stop believing in this or that piece?  

What is it that these kids and my kids are hearing that makes them turn away?

Magic books problems with higher education are legion.  It might be helpful to narrow your search.  What subjects do you think that inserting ones god beliefs ought to count as an adequate answer on a college level test?  We could start in those subjects.

In general, the issue (at least as I see it)..is that it wholly misrepresents our origins and subsequent history, that it proposes a repulsive ethical system, and that it's a representative of a larger set of problematic human superstitions.

[Minimalist]

Reason... they do not know how to defend what they believe in.

Perhaps it is indefensible?

Ever read "Jesus Interrupted" by Bart Ehrman?

A very large percentage of seminarians are completely blind-sided
by the historical-critical method. They come in with the expectation
of learning the pious truths of the Bible so that they can pass
them along in their sermons, as their own pastors have done for
them. Nothing prepares them for historical criticism. To their surprise
they learn, instead of material for sermons, all the results of
what historical critics have established on the basis of centuries of
research. The Bible is filled with discrepancies, many of them irreconcilable
contradictions. Moses did not write the Pentateuch (the
fi rst five books of the Old Testament) and Matthew, Mark, Luke,
and John did not write the Gospels. There are other books that did
not make it into the Bible that at one time or another were considered
canonical—other Gospels, for example, allegedly written by
Jesus’ followers Peter, Thomas, and Mary. The Exodus probably did
not happen as described in the Old Testament. The conquest of the Promised Land
is probably based on legend. The Gospels are at odds
on numerous points and contain nonhistorical material. It is hard
to know whether Moses ever existed and what, exactly, the historical
Jesus taught. The historical narratives of the Old Testament are
filled with legendary fabrications and the book of Acts in the New
Testament contains historically unreliable information about the
life and teachings of Paul. Many of the books of the New Testament
are pseudonymous—written not by the apostles but by later writers
claiming to be apostles.

pg 5-6

You should.

[G Alan]

Khemikal.
You reckon that's why? It's that they don't know how to defend some x? I'd suspect that people leave their religions because they no longer believe in some x...even if they were aware of all the right verses to reference, personally. Elephant in the room...though, are we sure that's when it starts?

Good question. I have considered this. A person can have vast amounts of "head knowledge" . Like you said they may even know the right verses of whatever to reference to actually defend. If they walk away so easily or not so easily, did they really believe what they "believed" in the first place? Does that even make sense?
Eeh, got to get off here but just put this subject out here as far as college level. A psychology professor told her class couldnt talk about a god.

[Silver]

I am here to ask if there are any of people who were a bible believing, Christ following, Christian who chose to "walk away" from that belief.  If so, how long were you a follower of Jesus and why did you abandon that faith?  What is your belief now?
Thank you so much for your time.
G.

I was raised in the Catholic faith, though it was never so much based on the bible, something we never did as a family, but more of a general acceptance of god's existence and Jesus' salvation. About the only interaction I had with religion was at a younger age where we attended a Catholic church where the service was in Latin, which meant we never understood a word of it, and then later the priest was Spanish I think and the language of the service switched to that. We left that church and tried another church very briefly, but overall we stopped attending church when I was still young. The only connection I had to religion after that was through nightly prayer before bed.

Later in high school, I befriended some churchy teenagers who convinced me to attend their church. I began to read the bible, and I think it was actually reading the book for the first time that truly began to open my eyes to the truth of its absurdity. Having been such a huge fan of reading fiction, I certainly recognized fiction when I encountered it, and the bible was filled with fiction. I tried sticking with Pentacostal Christianity, mainly due to the friendship I had with others my age, but I eventually left when those friends turned against me and showed themselves to be more evil than any non-believer I have since encountered in my life.

I am currently an anti-theist.

[KevinM1]

I have the feeling that the reason why a psychology professor would tell their class to not inject god into their work is because god and faith is a convenient catch-all for every problem.

Having marital issues?  Pray for guidance.
Living with an abusive partner?  Pray for guidance.
Having issues with depression?  Pray for guidance.
Still having issues?  You didn't do it right.  Your faith isn't strong enough.  You didn't beseech god the right way.  Maybe you're too much of a dirty sinner to deserve help.

Do you see why injecting faith into everything can be harmful?  A lot of the former theists here all talk about the emotional issues they've had to deal with when they've been told, repeatedly, since childhood that they're innately bad.  That they're destined for hell.  That their god hasn't revealed himself to them because, no matter how hard they try, they're still sullied deep down inside.

If I were that professor, I'd say the same thing.  Because people needing help, real help, need more than thoughts and prayers.  They need real, actionable help that is proven to provide real results.  And far too many Christians think that faith rather than knowledge is the solution to every problem.  Maybe you and your kids aren't like that, but if that professor outright said it, then chances are far too many of their students are.

[Mister Agenda]

I think it's not so much that they have trouble defending 'some x' as that they find out that 'some x' is indefensible. IF education is an enemy of your belief, it might be because what you believe in isn't actually true.

Wouldn't we expect things that are true to be bolstered the more knowledge you have? That you might learn things about what you think are true that you didn't know, but you wouldn't learn things that mean what you thought is true might not be?

[Simon Moon]

 My problem is, along with the vast majority of believers in Christianity,  is the fact, that we dont know how to defend it well, with excellency.  Sometimes at all.   The only thing that alot of Christians can do is say to you..." well, you just got to have faith".   Then when hammered by people of ya'lls beliefs they get caught off guard and truly have no way to defend themselves.   Thats not good enough.

But here's the thing, even the 'best' apologists (Alvin Plantinga, William Craig, John Lennox, Lewis, Strobel, etc, etc) can not defend their faith.

I have read many of the 'best' books, that have the 'best' arguments and evidence these people have produced, and they all fail. The Kalam Cosmological argument, the argument from design, the Ontological argument, the transcendental argument are ALL fallacious. And none of these apologists can present any demonstrable and falsifiable evidence to support the Christian god claim. Hell, their arguments and evidence even fail to demonstrate a generic god claim.

I don't 'hammer people' on my beliefs. I want theists to support theirs. It is not up to me to defend the claim that gods don't exist, it is up to theists to defend their claim that a god does exist.

 We all need to have faith, (yes you have faith too) that what we believe is truth.

Nope.

I do not believe anything on faith, at least how theists use the word. Faith is not a virtue.

To me, faith is indistinguishable from gullibility. If someone points out that one of my beliefs is based on faith, you know what I will do? I will stop believing it.

But like all of you have said...we have to have something to back that up.  Ya'll want me to take the bible away as some of the evidence but that is where a lot of the evidence and proof starts for me and other christians.

Wrong again.

The Bible is not evidence for your claim, the Bible is your claim. You are starting with a presupposition that the Bible is true, then providing the Bible as your evidence that it is true.

This is circular logic. It is a failure of logic 101.

Why should we believe the Bible?

But we are so Bible illiterate its not even funny.   I have shared my faith, what i believe as truths, with my kids and raised them in a Christian home.  They have been in church their whole life.  The oldest started a community college 2 years ago.  She has taken several classes in which professors have stated to the class "there is no God".

The professors offer no solid proof but will not allow the kids to insert their beliefs into asignment or test.  Now that would bother a lot of other Christians but it doesnt bother my family.

Pardon me if I don't believe this story. But this is pretty standard theist propaganda. The entire movie, "God is Not Dead" was based on this straw man.

Atehist professor myth

Even as an atheist, I would ague against this professor. I would love to know how they are so certain that a god does not exist?

 I dont care about prayer in school or 10 commandments hanging on the walls of government buildings.  But doesnt it seem they need to be fair?  If professors make statements claiming no god then let the kids make their claims as well.  Whatever religion/god that may be.  All that to say this.  Kids who are brought up in the Christian church and home....when they attend college, 85% of them start to question or fall away or completely walk away from their "faith".  Reason... they do not know how to defend what they believe in.  That bothers me.  So i am on here to learn from ya'll.  Like I asked in my very first poat.....What is it that these kids and my kids are hearing that makes them turn away?  What makes people turn away from something they have believed?  I share all this with my kids and wife.  We are walking through this stuff.  I really am sincere when i say thanks for your honesty.

Maybe it is not because theist kids not being able to defend their beliefs. But maybe it's because they have been taught critical thinking?

That is what happened to me. I was a skeptic with regards to all other existential claims, except for my theistic beliefs. Those I compartmentalised in my mind to keep them immune from critical thinking. As soon as I started to examine them (in a sincere attempt to find rational reasons and evidence to support them), they soon collapsed.

I want my kids to be able to defend their belief even if it goes away from what i taught them.  I want them to be sure and confident it.

Here is the thing.

The single best method ever discovered as a path to what is true, or at least what is most likely true, is using demonstrable and falsifiable evidence, reasoned argument, and valid and sound logic.

Faith is not a reliable path to truth. How can it be, when it leads 1.1 billion Hindus to Hinduism, 1.5 billion Muslims to Islam, 2.1 billion Christians, etc.?

And here we atheists are, sitting outside ALL faith based religions, with no reliable method to discern if any of them are correct. And none of you can present a case that meets its burden of proof.

All I know is, ya'll or me is definitly wrong in our belief...period. We all will die... period...and when we do die we will all face the  consequences of our choice for what we belief.

What method should I use in order to tell if your beliefs are true?

How do you know there are consequences for our choices? Because it says to in the Bible? As far as I can tell, and all demonstrable evidence points to, when we die, we are dead.

I cant express how I desperately want my kids to be able to work that out for themselves, be SURE of what they believe and be able to DEFEND what they believe.  That is why i need you guys.  Like i said, i read to them what you say.

So, hypothetical for you...

Let's say, your kids are no longer convinced that a god exists, and they become atheists. You die and go to Heaven. You are in bliss, or whatever you believe Heaven is like.

Now, your children die as atheists, and they are sent to hell (Mark 3:28-30). How could you still be in bliss in Heaven, knowing that your children are being tormented in Hell?

Hell, how could anyone be happy in Heaven knowing that the vast majority of all humans that have ever lived, are in Hell?

[Whateverist]

Whateverist,
I do this on my phone so i haven't figured out how to get a quote to here.  So i just copy and paste.  I need to get my 14 year old daughter to show me what to do.

Anyway you said...." Don't mean to rush you -and I'm pretty sure I couldn't if I wanted to- but I've very curious what is going on with you.  I wonder what your doubts are and how your confidence is holding up, if that is something you want to share in this environment.  Anyhow you seem to have a strong center, I look forward to hearing more about whatever it may be that is going on in there."    

To all ya'll on here....I have nothing to hide.  I want ya'll to be honest with me so i will openly and honestly say that ya'll have some dang tough stuff!  Your comments and questions are good and make me think.  I am very confident and have doubts in what i believe.

In my honest opinion, the reason Christians have a hard time squaring their beliefs with higher education is that their most basic beliefs are not based on careful research or reason to begin with.  If you start with unsupported, presupposed facts you end up with indefensible positions.  The biggest problem is that most Christians claim things that are by their very nature indefensible.  

I personally think you could carve out an intellectually defensible position which preserves a place for God but you would have to give up claiming to know everything about that god and what it wants from you.  You'd have to humbly admit to not knowing a lot of things most Christians proudly boast of knowing now.

If God/gods are to be tenable you need to start off by recognizing and admitting that you are speaking of something which is in its very essence an irresolvable mystery.  Rather that approach the bible as a legal contract between God and man, you should admit it is but one of many books which inspire reflection on the mystery of God/gods.  Stop saying you know just how the world began and you know just what happens after you die and you know just what God wants of you in this life.  Instead admit that you of course don't know those things -any more than any other person.  But insist that reflecting on the mystery of God gives you a way to think about all those things.  Rather than insist that your beliefs are better than other people's beliefs, admit that knowing what to believe is a challenge for every human being.  Do that and you can hold your head high.

By the way, you really need to stop thinking that the bible contains God's answers for mankind.  If it was supposed to be that then God was a piss poor communicator.  Faith is about opening yourself humbly to the truth; it's not about latching on to the bible proudly and confidently as the revealed Truth.  Don't assume anything.  Just ask and wait for the answers.  And really, you're a farmer, isn't life mostly about some pretty concrete things that need doing everyday?  How important is it to you or anyone else to know "where we come from" or "where we go after we die"?  No one knows is a good starting place.  Then, when the chores are done, and you're sure you've done all that was needed for that family that you obviously love very much, go ahead and speculate about those things.  But you can be sure, no one else knows with certainty any more about the answers than you do.  Not your pastor.  Not your kid's psychology professor.  No one.

So don't make claims you can't defend.  In fact don't be in such a rush to make those kinds of claims at all.  It is only when we claim much more than we really can know that we end up looking foolish, and fail at higher education.  Humility is the key.

I'll leave off answering the rest of your post unless you find this much of any value.  Your call.

[brewer]

G: Sounds like you want to help and give guidance to your kids so that they keep the faith. That's all well and fine but in the end they need to space to be allowed to come to their own conclusions. 

If they want to believe they'll do their own research and seek their own knowledge. If they have questions I think they'll only be satisfied with finding their own answers.